I NEVER know what to do here...

[Colombo]

hands like this seem to always get me in trouble. The line i lose for them sometimes allows me to win big ones picking off bluffs, but it also fucks me over alot too..


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1270)
CO (t1020)
Button (t1790)
SB (t1495)
Hero (t2195)
UTG (t1230)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t100, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t50.

Flop: (t325) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t150</font>, CO folds, Hero calls t150.

Turn: (t625) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t250</font>, Hero calls t250.

River: (t1125) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: t1125


How should I have played that? Assume folding preflop is not an option.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

I don't like the flop check. You have no idea where you stand and this gives you absolutely no information. You're in the same position on the turn. Put a bet out there and see where you stand.

[lem45216]

Yeah i like the idea of putting out a bet on the flop maybe about 1/2 pot to see where you're at, you can get away with it if the villain fights back.
To be honest though i'm quite passive in these situations between levels 1-3 and would probably fold after the villain bet on the flop because there will most likely be more lucrative spots later on so no point risking a significant % of your stack at the moment. But who knows, that might be a leak in my game. But thats how i'd play it.

To be really honest i do fold this pf.

[lacky]

stop calling, raise to see where your at, or fold and save the chips. calling is usually the worst option.

Steve

Fold on all streets except the river.

[lastchance]

I think you need to check to UTG here and expect a contuination bet.

I think the way you played it is fine, calling down his bluff, though it may not be perfect.

I don't like betting out because it folds hands you are ahead of, and only lets hands you have beat come in, so the way I see it on the flop is you can either check-call, check-raise, or check-fold to a bet and a call.

[bigt439]

I fold preflop and I don't know why it's "not an option". Your hand sucks, and you're out of position. Since you didn't you can lead the flop, check raise it, or stop and go, but I wouldn't be folding when it gets back to me. I'd lead the turn for 1/2 pot and see what happens. Check the river.

EDIT: To be a little clearer, I sometimes will fold when it gets back to me, but that dinky little bet looks weak.

[caretaker1]

Bet the flop (2/3 the pot), fold to a raise. As has already been said, you have no idea where you are if you just call.

$.02

[C M Burns]

This is always a tricky spot.
A. folding pre flop would be a big mistake getting 5-1.

Betting out is probably best, you may miss out on a continuation bet when you are ahead but should save some money when you are beat. it is awkward on the turn when they call but check calling can be expensive and just as awkward. I have often checked too in these spots but usually end up regretting not betting out.

If you know theplayers are a bit passive and will not continue to bluff the turn and riv then perhaps check calling and seeing how much is bet is ok, but you risk giving free cards that way.

[NiR]

not so fondly of a hand like this either. knowing me i would probably check/call flop and bet on turn planning to fold to a raise. but since he bitch raised preflop utg, i think a fold on the flop is fine also.

[NiR]

and to add.. i also fold this preflop a lot of the times.

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
This is always a tricky spot.
A. folding pre flop would be a big mistake getting 5-1.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. Your stack is healthy and your hand is likely dominated. Why risk chips when you can wait for a better spot. I fold.

[ QUOTE ]
stop calling, raise to see where your at, or fold and save the chips. calling is usually the worst option.

Steve

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent advice!

I was helping a friend/student yesterday going over some HH's from the 5+1s and this something I kept repeating over and over.

If you are calling here you're probably calling in many similar situations, stop now and your results will improve.

[tomtemor]

I usually check-call the flop and bet out on the turn in these situations. I have no idea why I do it and if it's good or not, it's just something I do. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[FieryJustice]

If you just fold preflop, you save yourself a lot of trouble.

[Matt R.]

tomtemor,
I actually like this line, and will use it a lot in situations like this where I'm OOP and may have the best hand. It favors keeping the pot small, which is good with a marginal hand in short stacked sng's. Leading out on the flop is inviting villain to come over the top of you to "test" you and try to take it down. If he's aggressive, it's often bad to lead out IMO.

Edit: But.. in a sitiation like this where villain doesn't have too many chips to raise you with air to "test" you, it may be better to lead out as you can threaten a good chunk of his stack with a medium sized bet. So, my check/call, lead out on the turn line is very stack dependent and player dependent as well. I think it's reasonable in this case, but I wouldn't always do it, depending on how aggressive your opponent is.

I don't think calling pf is all that horrible, as long as hero knows how to play post-flop. But if he says he NEVER knows what to do, then yes, he should be folding. Also, at the low-buyins a minraise UTG will mean they have AA-QQ about 30% of the time, maybe more.

As for post flop, I think I check fold, the flop didn't hit me as favorably as I wanted to, I'm getting out.

[USCSigma1097]

I put villain on JJ or TT...Results???

Sigma

[Pudge714]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold preflop and I don't know why it's "not an option". Your hand sucks, and you're out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well put

[unfrgvn]

[ QUOTE ]
hands like this seem to always get me in trouble. The line i lose for them sometimes allows me to win big ones picking off bluffs, but it also fucks me over alot too..



[/ QUOTE ]

Where's Freudian...

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
hands like this seem to always get me in trouble. The line i lose for them sometimes allows me to win big ones picking off bluffs, but it also fucks me over alot too..


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP (t1270)
CO (t1020)
Button (t1790)
SB (t1495)
Hero (t2195)
UTG (t1230)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t100, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls t50.

Flop: (t325) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t150</font>, CO folds, Hero calls t150.

Turn: (t625) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t250</font>, Hero calls t250.

River: (t1125) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: t1125


How should I have played that? Assume folding preflop is not an option.

[/ QUOTE ]

To all the fold PFers...you all weak!

Read the HH...this isnt Party and folding PF isnt always the right answer to everything.

To the poster who said 30% of the time its QQ-AA...no, its less than that...80% of the time its 22-77. (and they play them post flop like pocket aces)

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
To all the fold PFers...you all weak!

Read the HH...this isnt Party and folding PF isnt always the right answer to everything.

To the poster who said 30% of the time its QQ-AA...no, its less than that...80% of the time its 22-77. (and they play them post flop like pocket aces)

[/ QUOTE ]
What does not being Party have to do with anything? I swy fold preflop because your stack is healthy and you have a hand that is dominated much of the time. I see no reason to risk this here.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To all the fold PFers...you all weak!

Read the HH...this isnt Party and folding PF isnt always the right answer to everything.

To the poster who said 30% of the time its QQ-AA...no, its less than that...80% of the time its 22-77. (and they play them post flop like pocket aces)

[/ QUOTE ]
What does not being Party have to do with anything? I swy fold preflop because your stack is healthy and you have a hand that is dominated much of the time. I see no reason to risk this here.

[/ QUOTE ]

because if you had 800 in starting chips you may want to conserve them and pass on marginal plays. 1500 to start gives you some leeway. People are so afraid of UTG minraisers when most of the time, it is really just a marginal hand raising its value...the minimum. And also trying to play against the blinds. On a flop, you can get an idea right away more or less whats going on, and the times I am right yield me more money than the times I am wrong and/or have to get away.

I am not offering advice on how to play this hand down...only saying that typing "fold pf" getting 5-1 with A9 and closing the action is not something I would think of saying. I really believe at stars, HERO will have two overs most of the time here, and it wont cost him his stack to find out usually.

If on this hand it turned out Hero was dominated or UTG had a monster...then I apologize ....doesnt make the pf call bad.

(deja vu...ive made this post before...I am sure of it)

[pooh74]

BTW...just wanted to add that I would rather have a hand besides A9 to call this PF. 35s would be ideal...8T, 76 etc...A9 is not something I am excited about. This call is all about pot odds and mostly implied odds. 50 into 300 and the possibility of stacking someone on the cheap. UTG raisers are great implied odds makers.

[zambonidrivr]

fold preflop. period

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop. period

[/ QUOTE ]
The value of this hand review isn't the pre-flop decision. The value is in realizing that you can't check/call the whole way. You have to find out where you stand. If you're going to call a t250 bet anyway, you might as well put it in yourself and see what happens here. Find out where you stand on the flop instead of at the showdown.

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, at the low-buyins a minraise UTG will mean they have AA-QQ about 30% of the time, maybe more.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's important to point out that this is very inaccurate. 3% would be a better estimate than 30%.

Irieguy

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also, at the low-buyins a minraise UTG will mean they have AA-QQ about 30% of the time, maybe more.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's important to point out that this is very inaccurate. 3% would be a better estimate than 30%.

Irieguy

[/ QUOTE ]

ty!

[kevkev60614]

For those who lead the flop and are called, where do you go from there?

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
For those who lead the flop and are called, where do you go from there?

[/ QUOTE ]
Lead the turn. You've either got him kicked or he's (more likely) got a PP lower than QQ. You'll find out if you're in trouble here.

[Colombo]

ok so obviously check/calling isnt a good line.

I have always known this, but I didn't know if there was anything better...

Leading out - If Villian calls or raises then what? What's a good lead, 1/2-2/3 pot?

check/raising - I do this play sometimes, but it really cripples me when villian has a hand.

check/folding - I'll do this if the other player in the hand calls. I think this is also weak though because villian could always be continuation betting.

Which option do you guys think is best in this situation? There seems to be alot of various answers, which only tells me that check/calling is bad, but not what is best.

Thanks for the help though.