AA: SSHE pg. 163

[Aviston]

Interesting hand to say the least.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero ...?

Should I cap this for value here? Or is this much like the KK hand on page 163 of SSHE? By capping, I'll be giving BB a little over 10:1 on his call and UTG 15:1. If, however, I wait until the turn to raise (assuming UTG+2 bets the turn) I would cut down those odds to around 8:1.

On a side note, I'm not even sure my hand is currently best considering I got check-raised by not one but two players on my flop bet. How about that MP1 calling 3 bets cold like it's his job?

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting hand to say the least.

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (18.50 SB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero ...?

Should I cap this for value here? Or is this much like the KK hand on page 163 of SSHE? By capping, I'll be giving BB a little over 10:1 on his call and UTG 15:1. If, however, I wait until the turn to raise (assuming UTG+2 bets the turn) I would cut down those odds to around 8:1.

On a side note, I'm not even sure my hand is currently best considering I got check-raised by not one but two players on my flop bet. How about that MP1 calling 3 bets cold like it's his job?

[/ QUOTE ]


I played this same hand today. Had AA, I raise, got 3 bet behind me, I capped.

Flop 952 rainbow, I bet, get raised, some dude c/r both of us, I cap, 3 to the turn


9952 I bet, they call

river


99542


I bet, they call


I 'see' KK and JJ, thanks PA HUD /images/graemlins/grin.gif


I cap and go from there. If you hit any resistance on the turn, it's time to slow down.

[Aviston]

Well, I posted my hand-being-best-musings as a side note. What I'm really asking here is if it is better to cap this flop for value, or if there is more value in waiting to raise the turn to protect my hand.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I posted my hand-being-best-musings as a side note. What I'm really asking here is if it is better to cap this flop for value, or if there is more value in waiting to raise the turn to protect my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]



You can't protect your hand from much at this point. MP guy cold calling 3 isn't going to fold to a bet and a raise, everyone else is putting money in this pot freely.

I'd cap to try and take control of the hand. If I cap the flop and the turn is a brick, and it's bet and raised to me, I can safely fold then. Also, if a /images/graemlins/heart.gif hits the turn, do you really want to raise at that point?

[Aviston]

Well, I was more of thinking that if a brick hit then I'd raise the turn. It's not about trying to get players to fold, it's about giving them incorrect odds on their call. By waiting until the turn I can give many draws (including gutshots, etc) incorrect odds. Their mistakes are +EV for me.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I was more of thinking that if a brick hit then I'd raise the turn. It's not about trying to get players to fold, it's about giving them incorrect odds on their call. By waiting until the turn I can give many draws (including gutshots, etc) incorrect odds. Their mistakes are +EV for me.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't think even this will happen. When you call 2 more, and the BB calls 2 more, this is a 32SB pot.

16BB to the turn. Say it goes bet, you raise,

Now there's 19BB, ppl have to call 2BB. 9.5-1

I just don't think you can protect this hand anymore, it's all about value.

I have also read this section of SSHE very carefully. I think you are right, that you cannot protect your hand on the flop, but with a check raise on the turn. But are the players with a gutshot really wrong to call to 1/9.5 or will they calculate their implied odds high enough to call?

[Aviston]

As I stated earlier, I really don't think I have a chance to fold anyone out of this hand. However, giving them incorrect immediate pot odds seems better than giving them odds to call with pretty much anything. I'm really unsure as to whether giving up a value cap on the flop is worth it in this situation.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
As I stated earlier, I really don't think I have a chance to fold anyone out of this hand. However, giving them incorrect immediate pot odds seems better than giving them odds to call with pretty much anything. I'm really unsure as to whether giving up a value cap on the flop is worth it in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]


If they are going to call with a gutshot getting 10.5-1, they will call getting 9.5-1. Do you know why?

Because they will look at the pot that says $14999999 and say, all I need is a X and I win all that. They will call.

That being said, I'd just go ahead and cap, and get as much as you can now. The turn might get bet and raised without your help anyway.

[Aviston]

I would post the rest of the hand, because it's absolute comedy, but I feel I've been ridiculed enough for one day on this forum.

Firstly, I cap the flop just to see where I am on the turn, as someone already stated. If there is excessive action on the turn before it gets to you, I would think you can muck the hand.

Secondly, where are you being ridiculed? All I see are people giving honest replies...

[benwood]

I'm not particularly worried about the odds that they are getting at this point, myself. But , like you, I would rather not cap the flop. They may cap it anyway, without my help. But whether it's capped now or not , I will still get more momey in there by encouring them to lead the turn so that I can pop them again.

[ QUOTE ]
As I stated earlier, I really don't think I have a chance to fold anyone out of this hand. However, giving them incorrect immediate pot odds seems better than giving them odds to call with pretty much anything. I'm really unsure as to whether giving up a value cap on the flop is worth it in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think protecting your hand can be a consideration, but should not always be the overriding one. As Ed Miller has posted, waiting for the turn accomplishes more than just giving people incorrect odds to fold. It builds a bigger pot from players that are going to the river, and it can sometimes get someone to FOLD incorrectly b/c they think you have a monster hand like a set and will incorrectly fold one pair hands that have odds to continue.

I don't think we should be raising the turn here for several reasons. 1) Due to the heavy flop action we are quite possibly behind. By capping the flop we more clearly define our hand and it makes the turn and river easier to play. I don't really want to put two bets in on the turn if I am drawing dead. 2) You have to think what type of hands you are giving incorrect odds to. UTG does not have an inside str8 draw based on the action. So he's either ahead of you or drawing slim as it is. Maybe BB does, but taht is doubtful and I'm not going to go out of my way to give him incorrect odds on the off chance he does.

Overall, it all comes down to value. By offering someone incorrect odds to call, you either gain a fraction of the pot when they fold, or a fraction of their bet if they call. So I think obsessing about knocking out inside draw alone is pretty stupid. We're talking about fractions of a BB probably. So I think the combination of value from a flop raise if we're ahead, along with saving us bets as it makes the hand easier to play on the turn and river make this a flop raise.

For big overpair hands like KK,waiting for the turn to raise I think in general is good for a combination of reasons that reasons Ed Miller mentioned that I noted above. For hands like TT or JJ, I think waiting for the turn can be much more important as they are more vulerable to weak draws.

[benwood]

Tehox, You've got a lot good info. in your post &amp; I have studied it carefully, but I may still be misunderstanding some stuff. I'm not sure if capping the flop really defines the hand better. A player in this position who's on a draw could easily cap to try for a free card if he misses, so it seems that the other players will still be in the dark as to what you have. Suppose after your cap, a blank comes &amp; they check to you. Are you going to bet what you think could easily be the best hand? You don't want the betting to go the same way on the turn that it went on the flop, do you? I'm not saying this to be argumentitive. I just don.t understand how capping the flop makes the turn play easier. Help! Thanks.

[benwood]

I meant to say worst hand, not the best. Correction.

[Aviston]

[ QUOTE ]
Secondly, where are you being ridiculed? All I see are people giving honest replies...

[/ QUOTE ]
It was merely a joke considering for the most part, both of my posted plays were thought to be incorrect by the majority. Everyone's replies were much appreciated.

[winky51]

What he says. That seems the correct play. CAP the flop, bet the turn, of you get raised there then consider your options. KK aint laying down and I am pretty sure one of them has that. The only other hand that 3 better on the flop might have is a set.

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
Should I cap this for value here? Or is this much like the KK hand on page 163 of SSHE? By capping, I'll be giving BB a little over 10:1 on his call and UTG 15:1. If, however, I wait until the turn to raise (assuming UTG+2 bets the turn) I would cut down those odds to around 8:1.

[/ QUOTE ]
In a 6-player pot at 2/4 I would spend more time trying to get the most value from my hand vs. worrying about trying to protect it. You also need to pay attention to the action and be aware of when to release you hand (when top-pair isn't good anymore).

[House-Lion]

doesn't anyone comment a possible flush-draw here that very well could be a raiser or a fl-dr with a pair or some other random holding where that player think this is worth a raise?

what happend on turn?

I like the idea of getting the possibility to raise on turn again because you sometimes will fold out someone with a pair drawing to 2 pair or that 2 out-chaser.

[Derek in NYC]

I would cap it here, but only partially "for value" since there's a reasonable chance you're crushed at this point. (The other possibility is that somebody is jamming the nut flush draw, or draw and a pair, in this multiway pot).

One of the main reasons I want to cap here is to make 4th street easier to play. If a guy was going nuts on the flop with a draw, he will be less likely to raise into my cap with the same draw on 4th street.

So, if I cap the flop (and thus signal overpair), but on a non-heart 4th street UTG bets out into my flop cap and UTG+1 still raises, I can safely fold. If it is checked to me, I bet for value (although a checkraise is problematic).

If a heart falls, the hand is harder to play, and I'd be inclined to fold against two bets cold, since I dont have any redraws. OTOH, if a heart falls that doesnt pair the board, there's a pretty good chance it won't be raised, even by somebody holding a set

DerekNYC's post explains what I meant really well.

Also we 3-bet preflop, by capping the flop we're basically telling everyone we have AA.