Preflop hand selection for a tight-passive 2/4 game?

[John Biggs]

Paradise 2/4 seems to play very tight before the flop, even though players' hand selection isn't very good. It's common that an UTG raise steals the blinds; an early limper fails to draw more than a couple of players in behind him, including the blinds; etc. After the flop, the players become very loose, staying around in unraised pots to try to catch two pair, etc., when they don't have the odds.

This being the case I'm wondering if proper hand selection before the flop should be *very* tight, since you're not getting enough company to limp all that many drawing hands and you will be running into the "horse race" syndrome after the flop. It seems weird that an ultra-low low-limit game such as this should demand really, really tight play, but this is my conclusion. Anyone agree/disagree?

[pufferfish]

Here is a link to a thread on the General Theory forum that touches on this.

forum link (http://www.twoplustwo.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=genpok&Number=252103&fpart =&PHPSESSID=)

[SoBeDude]

Thats odd.

I play on paradise at 2-4 regularly and I'd not call the typical preflop play "tight" by any stretch of the definition.

Typically it tends to be the opposite. Loose preflop then tightens up after the flop.

-Scott

[pufferfish]

Guess it depends when you play. I’ve seen it play exactly as John described.

[John Biggs]

You and I obviously are playing in different universes.

Tight preflop = table will often fold to UTG or middle raise, meaning you are forced to limp AA and KK nearly always; one or two early limpers are no guarantee of attracting limpers behind them; about a fourth of the time only two or three players see the flop; etc.

Loose after the flop = even in unraised pots, most of these 2/4 players will call on the flop hoping to spike their lone Ace or King on the turn, catch a baby set on the turn, draw to their backdoor straight or flush, etc. This is absolutely regardless of pot odds.

I have NEVER seen a Paradise 2/4 game that "tightens up after the flop" to any appreciable degree. Yes, one or two players may fold on the flop with hands even they recognize as hopeless, but as I say, the majority will stick around with very few outs. That's a loose game, not a tight one. Also, in a truly tight game, semibluffs have a great deal of value and you can steal many small pots if you play well; but in Paradise 2/4, semibluffs have negative expectation as most of the players are calling stations with any pair, regardless of the board.

[SoBeDude]

hmm. now you're going to give definitions.

see you on the tables. you play under this name?

-Scott

[davidross]

John,

I haven't played 2/4 in a few months but I don't remember it as you described it. The evening (EST) games were usually loose passive pre-flop but tight post flop.

Regardless, I think in any tight passive game you can open raise more but make sure you have high card power behind you. Suited aces are more valuable because of the showdown benefit of the A, but you'll have to forget about the little pairs and especially the suited connectors (I love the suited connectors). Stealing the blinds twice an hour can be all the profit you need. Post flop you can get away with ABC play I think. As you mentioned, they will call you down with any pair, so value bet when you hit, but forget about bluffing when you don't unless you think your unimproved A is still good.

[Jeffro]

John I'm going to agree with you here. I made a post here a couple weeks ago about what a loose game is. When I started playing live in a 2-4 game, it was almost always 5-7 players seeing every flop, and a chop about once every two hours, these games do not even play close to the same. I have over 10,000 hands at paradise at 2-4 and let me see when I get home to see if I can extract some numbers.

[MRBAA]

Biggs, I think playing ultra-tight early makes sense in the game you're describing. I'd be inclined to get a lot more aggressive later, like one off the cutoff and after. For instance, if the players behind you are playing tight preflop, I'd be inclined to raise K-10, A-9 and better offsuit. As David Ross suggests, steals can be a significant source of profit in this type of game (whereas in some low limit games -- think Playstation -- you can just about never steal). Also, if players won't fold on the flop, maybe you should only bet the flop for value not protection. So when you flop top pair with a nine and your ace kicker, just check and bet the turn if nothing scary comes. This could have two advantages: first, they're more likely to fold for the bigger bet (and more wrong to chase); second, you only give them one card to suck out on you, not two.

[rigoletto]

So when you flop top pair with a nine and your ace kicker, just check and bet the turn if nothing scary comes

So betting the flop here is not for value???? When your'e up against players who fequently calls the flop - cause it's the cheap street and they look to spike bottom set or a big card for top pair - you give up too much if you don't bet your top pair and you give them correct (infinite) odds to draw to these hands.

[John Biggs]

I think we can all agree that if you flop top pair with a decent kicker, your action depends primarily on the texture of the board and the number of opponents. (Of course there are other factors, such as whether anyone raised before the flop and whether there's a lot of action on the flop before it gets to you.)

Clearly with more than three loose opponents and a highly coordinated board, you are best off checking your big pair if you have little chance of improving, and either calling or folding to a bet, depending on how you read your chances. On the other hand, with either a ragged board or only a couple of opponents, you'll obviously want to try for a bet or a check-raise, depending on your position, etc.

As for my original post--I have changed my thinking slightly and now think that waiting for only top quality hands is a mistake. It's better to open-raise fairly often, even with an occasional substandard hand, if by doing so you can narrow the field to three or fewer weak opponents. The reason for this is that most players at the 2/4 level are highly readable and you gain a big edge if you can isolate them. If you follow this tactic you must be ready to throw your hand away in many situations. But it's far preferable to sitting there waiting for the nuts. Of course if the table is playing very loose preflop, or if there are a couple of tough players behind you, or if several limpers have already come in, you must play it differently.