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QUADS4444
09-20-2005, 04:34 PM
Harrington Volume II, page 348,

Three handed STT NL.
Blinds 250/500
No reads.

Button (4140) raises to 1000.
SB (3480) folds.
Hero BB (2380) with Q6o.

Harrington recommends a CALL.

Does anybody else have a problem with this? Sure pot odds are tempting 3.5/1, but OOP with Q6o????? What are your minimum calling requirements here?

schwza
09-20-2005, 04:45 PM
lemme tell you, they don't include Q6.

09-20-2005, 04:56 PM
Well.. we are ITM. I can see a stop and go, but my first instinct is definitely fold.

RedRum
09-20-2005, 04:58 PM
I would only call this if I planned on stop-n-go on any flop. I don't use stop-n-go very often, but this looks like a good spot.

Drink More,
RedRum

09-20-2005, 05:01 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would only call this if I planned on stop-n-go on any flop. I don't use stop-n-go very often, but this looks like a good spot.

Drink More,
RedRum

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's not Harrington's plan, he check/folds a JTx flop.

raptor517
09-20-2005, 05:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would only call this if I planned on stop-n-go on any flop. I don't use stop-n-go very often, but this looks like a good spot.

Drink More,
RedRum

[/ QUOTE ]

Well that's not Harrington's plan, he check/folds a JTx flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think thats a leak. holla

Indiana
09-20-2005, 05:18 PM
Harrington recommends a lot of stuff that you have to take with a grain of salt. Pushing in EP with KJo and 8 guys behind you just because your "M" is getting close to the red zone is ridiculous. Good book, but not everything is correct.

Indy

09-20-2005, 05:20 PM
...yea it does. It's not even close, it's an easy call. What are you afraid of to not call a 3.5-to-1? You have better odds than that against JACKS. Sure you won't know if your queen is any good even if you hit it, but what does it matter? He doesn't know if his hand is any good either. You have to assume that any high pair is good when the blinds are that high.

...yea it does. It's not even close, it's an easy call. What are you afraid of to not call a 3.5-to-1? You have better odds than that against JACKS. Sure you won't know if your queen is any good even if you hit it, but what does it matter? He doesn't know if his hand is any good either. You have to assume that any high pair is good when the blinds are that high.

Edit: To answer the question about calling requirements, I would say Jack-crap is borderline. This is not because now you can be an underdog to a slightly larger field. It's because you should stuff your money in with medium pair or better when the blinds are this high, but a pair of jacks has a far bigger chance of losing to a better pair than a pair of queens.

bigt439
09-20-2005, 05:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Harrington Volume II, page 348,

Three handed STT NL.
Blinds 250/500
No reads.

Button (4140) raises to 1000.
SB (3480) folds.
Hero BB (2380) with Q6o.

Harrington recommends a CALL.

Does anybody else have a problem with this? Sure pot odds are tempting 3.5/1, but OOP with Q6o????? What are your minimum calling requirements here?

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple months ago there was an entire thread on here tearing apart roughly 20 different scenarios presented in volume 2. The general consensus, from very good sit and go players, was that volume 1 was a much better book and that some of the things in volume 2 are just plain wrong.

raptor517
09-20-2005, 05:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...yea it does. It's not even close, it's an easy call. What are you afraid of to not call a 3.5-to-1? You have better odds than that against JACKS. Sure you won't know if your queen is any good even if you hit it, but what does it matter? He doesn't know if his hand is any good either. You have to assume that any high pair is good when the blinds are that high.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes not all in preflop. following yer advice you should call with any 2. that is just plain wrong. holla

raptor517
09-20-2005, 05:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...yea it does. It's not even close, it's an easy call. What are you afraid of to not call a 3.5-to-1? You have better odds than that against JACKS. Sure you won't know if your queen is any good even if you hit it, but what does it matter? He doesn't know if his hand is any good either. You have to assume that any high pair is good when the blinds are that high.

[/ QUOTE ]

hes not all in preflop. following yer advice you should call with any 2. that is just plain wrong. holla

09-20-2005, 05:39 PM
Read my edit. Medium pair is good enough to stuff it with blinds this high three-way. At this point, you just have to stuff your chips in when a queen flops even if either an ace or a king comes out too (it's debatable if the flop comes AKQ).

If he has a higher pair, oh well, hope you suck out. But given the range of hands, you're better than 50/50 playing this way because he will have either an ace or a king, but not both. So given his most likely holdings (A-x or K-x), it's a 50% chance that it missed him. Add that to the fact that he may just have a small pair. If he had a better queen than you all along then that's just tough luck, but remember that there was a much smaller chance of him having another queen when you already held one. He may even fold a weak queen that beats yours! I'm not advocating calling with something as bad as 10-2 because it just has too high of a chance that the ten will get beaten by a higher pair.

RikaKazak
09-20-2005, 06:15 PM
ummm, easy call? you're wrong man, calling isn't horrible, but stop and go or folding is best play.

09-20-2005, 06:17 PM
You also have to take into account that Harrington is probably better than the very good SNG players and majority vote doesn't mean much in poker when the majority loses (and I'm pretty sure the majority of good SNG players will lose to Harrington).

That isn't to say that the stuff in the book isn't debatable. I'm debating that Harrington is absolutely right here, although the reason he gives misses out the important detail of how to play it after the flop.

Gramps
09-20-2005, 06:29 PM
It's not that bad a play if button is mini-raising just about any two cards, and will fire a good-sized bet on the flop (say 2/3 pot size) when checked to regardless of what he has. Then, you're paying 500 to have 3250 (3750 total, 2250 + 1500 flop bet) in the pot against a random hand (or very wide range of hands). The 1/3 of the time you pair the flop, going to war in that situation (esp. given your relative stack sizes) is just fine - a pair on the flop HU against a random hand is a good hand. Even if you check-fold the 2/3 of the time you miss, you have some FE still as well. And given the texture of the flop, you have options for the stop n' go as well, etc...

But with "no reads" as given in the problem, I don't agree with the play.

09-20-2005, 06:49 PM
Can you elaborate on how it's not an easy call? Keep in mind that you're willing to just give him a pot the size of a little more than 1/4th (!) of your stack when you have a very, very low chance of pot odds not playing in your favor. I am very strong when it comes to heads-up and shorthanded play and I can say with utmost confidence that it's an easy call for the reasons I have stated.

Folding this hand is worse than pushing All-In with it. Even if you get called, you're most likely a little better than 2-to-3 underdog since he's probably going to have 1 card higher than a queen and 1 card higher than a six. Added to that is the fact that he may fold. And you're gonna fold 3.5-to-1 odds and let him run over you? I just don't see how anyone can suggest that folding is the best option. It's gotta be the worst option available.

Edit: By the way, now that I think about it, it's also semi-important that the other card is a six. If the other card was a three, I would probably fold. But because it is a six, there's a good possibility of making medium pair with the six as well.

QUADS4444
09-20-2005, 07:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would only call this if I planned on stop-n-go on any flop. I don't use stop-n-go very often, but this looks like a good spot.

Drink More,
RedRum

[/ QUOTE ]

In fairness to Harrington, he did mention that the texture of the flop JT5 (two suited) prevents him from attempting a steal.

raptor517
09-20-2005, 08:45 PM
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So given his most likely holdings (A-x or K-x), it's a 50% chance that it missed him.

[/ QUOTE ]

you need to get yer numbers right.

[ QUOTE ]
He may even fold a weak queen that beats yours!

[/ QUOTE ]

lol.

yer game needs work. holla

raptor517
09-20-2005, 08:47 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You also have to take into account that Harrington is probably better than the very good SNG players and majority vote doesn't mean much in poker when the majority loses (and I'm pretty sure the majority of good SNG players will lose to Harrington).


[/ QUOTE ]

if harrington gets 1k of his 2300 chips in on this hand, and check folds the flop, there is no way he will ever beat me long term in sngs. ever. i dont care what a majority vote says either way, calling 500 more with Q6o and check folding the flop is just atrociously bad.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm debating that Harrington is absolutely right here

[/ QUOTE ]
he is simply not right here. thats all there is to it.

holla

raptor517
09-20-2005, 08:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Can you elaborate on how it's not an easy call? Keep in mind that you're willing to just give him a pot the size of a little more than 1/4th (!) of your stack when you have a very, very low chance of pot odds not playing in your favor. I am very strong when it comes to heads-up and shorthanded play and I can say with utmost confidence that it's an easy call for the reasons I have stated.

Folding this hand is worse than pushing All-In with it. Even if you get called, you're most likely a little better than 2-to-3 underdog since he's probably going to have 1 card higher than a queen and 1 card higher than a six. Added to that is the fact that he may fold. And you're gonna fold 3.5-to-1 odds and let him run over you? I just don't see how anyone can suggest that folding is the best option. It's gotta be the worst option available.

Edit: By the way, now that I think about it, it's also semi-important that the other card is a six. If the other card was a three, I would probably fold. But because it is a six, there's a good possibility of making medium pair with the six as well.

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i gotta ask.. you are new and all.. what level of sngs do you play? im going to be as honest and kind as possible here. playing like this, and check folding Q6.. and saying things like shoving is better than folding here.. i dont know if you could beat the 22s.

holla

adanthar
09-20-2005, 09:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
A couple months ago there was an entire thread on here tearing apart roughly 20 different scenarios presented in volume 2. The general consensus, from very good sit and go players, was that volume 1 was a much better book and that some of the things in volume 2 are just plain wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

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