Calling from late position with a bad ace in an unraised pot

[peak_007]

There was an earlier thread about raising with a not so good ace from late position in an unraised pot. Here is a slightly counter-intuitive play that may make sense for different reasons.
Limping with a bad ace from late position in an unraised pot:

Here is my idea:

Often the situation will come up where you have a bad ace in late position but the pot is unraised.

Lets say there are 2-3 limpers and you are on the button or near the button looking at a bad unsuited ace.

My question: Do you fold this hand? Call with it? Raise with it?

I'll put forth that this is a calling hand. The early position callers are probably not on a good ace seeing it would be a raise hand. I know many players (including myself) who would fold anything below A-10 from early position, especially if unsuited.

The thought here is that you may be best on the table with a hand like A-6. Now the reason that I call is:

I am looking to see a flop cheaply against presumably both blinds and perhaps two other callers. If there is an Ace on the flop, I very well may be good the whole way now. Since there was no raise (remember we called) there could be a lot of action from anyone paired below an ace. I often find that a lower pair will play the hand passively, not raising, but simply paying off till the end.

The problem with a raise pre-flop......is that you are setting yourself up for the worst of two situations:

1) A bad ace is no good - you hit your ace (or miss it) and your hand is second or third best. You have now bet someone else's hand for them.

2) An ace is good - this is primarily where I see problems. The problem here......is that as you bet your hand to the end (assuming that you aren't raised, and there are no obvious flushes or straights) you will be put on an ace because of the pre-flop raise. This is an instance, where I would rather not be put on ace......where the 5-way action might figure there is no ace out there because of no raise pre-flop.....and other pairs could pay off. In short, the problem here is that you hit your hand, the hand is good, maybe even a monster, but can't extract anything from it.

Thoughts on how potentially valuable this deception is?

I realize that the raise with the bad ace could likely get the small blind to fold and perhaps even the big blind......and the action becomes 3-way or 4-way instead of 5-way. But the prospects of a big pot where aces hold seems to be worth it. This seems like a hand where you also tend to know (or have a good idea) when you are good and when you aren't. If you are raised on the turn you may well be no good. But if you bet the turn and are only called you may be good. And from late position you have the option of betting the turn and simply checking on the end if you are concerned with getting checked raised from a hand that is drawn.

All in all? It seems to me that there is good EV from limping in late position with a bad ace in an unraised pot. When the flop doesn't go your way you lose 1-bet. When the ace comes on the flop you are high on the board more often than not and have played a bit deceptively which gives you good prospects of winning a big pot. Of course if there are strong players limping with an A-9 through A-Q from early position......you can easily go down......likewise if one of the blinds has a better ace........but it seems that from early position most would raise or fold with a better ace.........and the risk/reward seems favorable up against the blinds.

Thoughts appreciated,

Peak

[SoBeDude]

Keep playing a naked ace from late position.

I'll start limping with my AT AJ AQ and "borrow" your chips.

If you think people won't notice and won't adjust to punish you, you're not giving your opponents enough credit.

If no one is in the pot (unopened) then your ace has a much better chance of being good. If you don't feel you have a chance to steal the blinds then just limp. If you think you may be able to steal the blinds, then you should open-raise.

-Scott

[Rockfish]

Easy fold unless suited and your opponents will pay you off when you make your flush.

Rockfish

[peak_007]

The problem I see with what you say.....is that if you are an early position with an AJ or AQ you have very strong incentive to raise or fold.

The hand simply goes too far down in value in a large multi-way pot. Not raising here increases the chance too much that it costs you the entire pot which is very bad.

Whereas a bad ace does not lose too much value (if it was good) when you get perhaps one more caller (say the small blind).

To say that players will adjust to this also seems far fetched as well.....seeing that the play might be made from late position once or twice a night if at all......and there are many other hands that I would also look to limp from in an unraised pot from late position such as low to middle pairs, suited connectors, A-x suited, K-x suited, and suited one gappers.......remember there were a couple of limpers already and you are on or near the button.

Peak

[peak_007]

An A-6 suited is a very easy call with 2-3 limpers in an unraised pot. There is no thought to this call.

So you are saying that a pair of aces is no good if it comes on the flop against the blinds.

Remember, I am not advocating to play any Ace from early or middle position. I am just advocating calling with any ace from late position in a certain instance. An unraised pot.

At worst here....this is a very close call. Especially if feel you can play well after the flop against the table you are at.

Peak

[Mikey]

I was in this situation not too long ago at the TAJ 10-20 game, no one raised and I'm on the button with A8o or A7o I don't remember but it was below a 9. Anyway there were 3 limpers and I limped the SB folded the BB tapped. the flop came

A 9 4r.

It was checked to me and I bet and got one caller who was directly to my right,
on the turn fell a x. he checked I bet and he called.
on the river fell a x. He check I bet and he called.

I showed him my Ace and took it down.

Now the reason why I kept following through with this hand and knew that I was best was because no one bet the flop.

If someone had bet the flop I would have thrown my Ace into the muck.

I think it's best off to muck this Axo before the flop and if you do play it...and someone bets that flop you are faced with a tough decision.

[peak_007]

Wonderful example.

If you raised pre-flop you likely don't get paid off on your hand.

True there will be times when you wish you folded the bad ace.........but I would rather be in a hand with a bad ace than with middle pair and a great kicker.

Many players will call you down with any pair of 88's through KK's.

And the times that you are beat by a good ace in this particular situation infrequent.

What are the odds of one of the blinds getting dealt an ace which is better than your late position bad ace?

About 20%.

The odds that one of the early limpers has a better ace is likely less.......with the primary risk coming from them limping with A(suited) and better kicker.

But then again, there is no 2-card hand which doesn't run into problems against numerous other 2-card hands....potentially.

Peak

[CrackerZack]

Getting paid off I don't think is the issue here as much as the hand holding up. I still don't like the play. I know a number of players who limp in loose games like this in EP with Axs (9-7, sometimes worse) and sometimes try limp reraises with AKs AQs. What happens if you hit your X or hit your ace and are faced with a bet? I feel like you have to have an unnatural knowledge of exactly what your opponents would limp with on to squeeze profit out of this hand. I for one dont' believe I'm that good and will fold.

[Nottom]

It might be ok to make this play occasionally, maybe we can pick certain combinations to make this play with to randomize it for you.

For example if I have A6 there are 16 ways to have this, I may want to make this play 25% of the time so lets choose some combinations to do it with.

Hmmm, 4 suits. Lets just use those.

OK, that sounds about right. Go ahead and make this play with Ac6c, Ad6d, As6s, and Ah6h, you can toss the rest. That should mix it up enough. /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Seriously though, people limp with AJ and AT all the time and AQ isn't terribly uncommon. Throw in all the fish that play Ax, times when the blinds get and ace, and all the others that like Axs and you are coming in with a dominated hand too often to make it worthwhile. If you really want to try it out, go online with pokerstat or pokertracker and see how you do with this play over few weeks and post the results. I'm guessing they won't be too good.

[rigoletto]

A little unsiuited in late position is a hand that wins small pots and looses big ones:

You'll only continue if you flop an ace and it's checked to you. When you get that flop you are likely to either win a small pot right there, or being called down by better hands or big draws, so you win little when you win and loose big when you loose, not to mention all the lost bets preflop.

[peak_007]

draws are not the concern here. draws such as straights and flushes are just as much a concern to wired aces in the hole as they are to the situation I am presenting.

So lets seperate the concerns.

I will maintain that this is not a hand where you lose big and win small,

if the ace doesn't come you lose small the majority of the time unless the kicker hits and then you have a case by case on whether to play or not.

The concern is that you lose to a better ace. The point is that the lack of a pre-flop raise will create the mentality "I won't be driven off my Kings, Queens, Jacks, Tens etc......by someone "representing" an ace. The bad ace is now a monster versus a hand like KQ which has paired......or a multitude of other limp in from early position hands which hit any pair lower than aces.

So the table pays the bad ace off. Of course sometimes you pay off a better ace.....but my experience shows that you get paid off more so than you do the paying.

Again, it is too costly to not raise a good ace under the gun from early position. Most players either raise with this hand or fold. Limping invites a 5 or 6-way pot which is deadly for AQ, AJ, A10. But Ace anything when played on the button in say a 4-5 way pot is not as deadly.....as you have processed the information that there was no early or middle position raise......and you maintain the buton for all betting rounds.

The key is to not raise from late position.

All in all I think there is some positve EV. You become the button which has value, you have what often will be the best hand against either drawing hands or dominated hands.....and again you are on the button.

I concede that there are times you will run into limpers like A-9 suited from early position......but less often than normal....and some players will raise from early position with their good aces' suited and even their ok aces suited.

Peak

[rigoletto]

Your strategy might work in a weak loose passive game. In tight games you'll find plenty of players limping with AJ and AQ and in agressive games you'll bump into a lot of checkraising and semibluffs. I don't want to make tough descissions with top piar lousy kicker drawing to 5 outs or less.

In my usual games I wouldn't win enough hands to make up for folding everytime I:

1) don't flop an Ace
2) flop one and it's bet before me
3) flop one and get checkraised
4) flop one and get bet into on the turn or river
5) flop one and get checkraised on the turn or river
6) flop one and get called down by a better hand

If you are to lay down in all of these situations it's a losing proposition, but if you choose to continue with a marginal hand in these situations you are likely to lose even more. Thus my statement about winning small and losing big.

[skp]

I haven't read the other responses but whether or not you call with a bad unsuited Ace in a multiway pot depends on how well your opponents play postflop.

In general, I would play this hand on the button or in the cut-off if 2 or more limpers are already in. I would not come in with a raise but just limp in.

Just don't get married to an Ace if you flop one. Conversely, don't think that you ned to pair up to win. One of the reasons you play preflop is to enable you to take a stab at the flop if no one looks interested. Hopefully, that bet wins it for you. If it doesn't, it will likely reduce the field to 1 opponent and your Ace high may well be best against that chap. As for your play on the turn?...just play it well....hehe..helpful advice there, huh?

...anyway, I call preflop

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

If I hold AJo in early position, I have more incentive to limp and keep Ax in the hand. Then I check an ace-high flop and see what happens. If I raise AJo in early position, now an ace-high flop makes me nervous.

[bernie]

look at the texture of youre hand. if it's offsuit, does it make sense to try and play it 5-way? many players will limp with bigger aces. and if theyre suited aces theyre not making much a mistake by limping ahead of you.

it also depends on how your opponents play who limped ahead of you and hw tight the blinds are. if the players were good ahead of you, id likely fold here. unless it was suited. suited id alternate between limping and raising.

if the players were bad, then id be more inclined to raise to try and get some blinds out.

if the blinds are bad, id still be inclined to fold here. i just dont like A6o here. especially if they go too far postflop the way they play.

but i do love the players who play Ax, flop trips, then worry that their kicker is no good and check it all the way down.

b

[peak_007]

It seems that the concern a few posters have with late position limping with a bad ace is the 2 limpers from early position.

Now lets change focus somewhat. I will agree completely that you very well may have a limper that beats A6o if they limped with A8s or A7s or A9s

But when you have early position limpers what is the range of hands that they could have?????

Lets include:
any pocket pair 99, 88, 77, 66, 55, 44, 33, 22
any suited connector Jacks-10 through 5,4
a high suited one gapper like 10,8s.
a connector hand like J10 through 87
a decent king-suited K10, K9, maybe K8, K7
a worse Ace-suited A5, A4, A3, A2
I calculate there are over 204 two card combinations that a reasonable player may limp with in early position.

Now if one of the players is loose....you may add it a ton more combos like K10o, K9o, Q10o, Q9, J9 .....or even worse garbage.
But I won't assume these type hands......I'll assume more reasonable hands.....which someone may well be inclined to limp with.

The odds of any one limper having a better ace is only roughly 6%. So in this instance......if it were true.....I think most would agree that there could clearly be +EV in limping with a hand like A6 on the button with 2 limpers in an unraised pot if you play it well after the flop.

It seems the majority of the concern comes from those who would limp with AQ, AJ, or A10. If these hands are suited........it can go either way ......limp or raise.....but more players than not are happy to be dealt a good hand and raise.......I would raise with A10 suited under the gun about 80%-90% of the time.

Perhaps this is because of my game......but these hands a rarely limped with from early position. This is clear mistake....if I'm not mistaken which can cost the pot to someone who gets to see a flop for cheap with an OK flush or straight draw. These hands are raise or fold. Since this is generally not done in my game (limp with AQ, AJ, A10 offsuit from early position) and I furthermore don't think it should be done.........why is everyone focusing on it.

Please explain why it may be a strong play to limp with AQ, AJ, or A10 offsuits under the gun. Explain why the play holds up as sound on its own (not for deception purposes). I think this is a much worse negative EV play (limping in.....instead of raising in) than my attempt to play a bad ace on the button in an unraised pot.

Peak

[bernie]

no reason to defend it. we're not saying to do it. we're saying be aware that many opponents do it.

some players play tight but will still play any A. along with some worse hands. player knowledge helps here.

"but more players than not are happy to be dealt a good hand and raise.......I would raise with A10 suited under the gun about 80%-90% of the time."

that's nice for you, but youre not looking at it from an opponents perspective. some dont raise unless they have QQ or higher and AK. and limp with everything else.

"Please explain why it may be a strong play to limp with AQ, AJ, or A10 offsuits under the gun. Explain why the play holds up as sound on its own "

again, we're not saying its good to do this. we're saying be aware of the possibilities of someone else doing it. got it? understand where we're coming from? just because you play that way, doesnt mean others do. so dont assume they do.

sometimes it can be a mistake to raise with these from this spot too. like if you know youre going to get alot of callers regardless of your raise. THEN, you may want to limp, especially if it's very passive preflop. and that isnt a mistake, it's a valid play in that situation.

know your texture and adjustments for them.

b

[polarbear]

The probability of flopping an A is only 17.3%. Add in all the trips with the rag card, and a monotone flop to the A, and it comes out to about 19%.

Now if the ace is suited, you can also flop a flush draw or a flush, which is about an additional 10%. (11.8% minus the flush draws with aces minus the 1% chance of hitting the flush draw without the suitedness.) The 29% chance of hitting the flop with A-rag suited is far better than the 19% chance of A-rag offsuit.

If there's a chance someone has any ace, let alone a bigger one, it's far worse as you can't win the whole pot with just aces in that case, unless somehow your 6 kicker plays and wins.

Yes, the flop can be all cards 8 or lower, with one of the rags your kicker. That's an additional 4.2% assuming the low pair is good.

There's also the reverse implied odds situation talked about in the previous posts.

Add all this up, and it looks like A-rag offsuit is a bad hand to limp in with.

[rigoletto]

If playing naked A's like this works for you fine. But I would still like to know how you would play it postflop?

[peak_007]

The play has worked at times....and of course not worked at times. The value in it seems to be when you get called to the end by lower pairs.

If I hit the flop, I'd try to play the hand as if it were a pretty good ace. Simply because I have found that I'm not often up against a good ace from the early position limpers.

After the flop.....if the hand was bet I'm a caller. If checked I bet. I hope to see some action but not too much action. The benefit of the play I have found is that you can be put on a variety of hands other than an ace.

I have rarely been check-raised on the turn with this type play. I would strongly consider folding. It would be an agressive play who would check-raise me on the turn with say middle pair or a draw. And if I get check-raised by a player with a good ace.....thanks as I save some money.

If I got check raised on the turn from someone who is a stronger player I fold here. If I get check-raised by weaker player I would call it down.

A player with high pair has incentive to give everyone a chance to fold out of the pot right there.

The best case scenerio is that the action gets checked to me and I get called down by draws which miss and pairs such as K,Q,J's.

After reading the thread here though....and thinking about this some more.....I agree that this is a hand to be very careful with.

I think going forward I'll only try the play when the two early limpers are weak. The reason.....if the early limper is weak......there are just soooo many hands they could be on besides a better ace. With a strong limper, even if they would normally raise AQ, AJ, A10 (or fold it).....it increases the probability that you are up against a hand like AJs, A10s, A9s, A8s, A7s. The reason being that many strong players would limp with these hands but would not limp with many of the marginal hands I listed......such as non-suited connectors like QJ or J10, or 10,9 and also a stronger player would probably fold most suited kings, and would also probably fold hands liks J9s, or 10,8s.

I think the key to my play is the ability to put the 2-limpers as well as the blinds on a wide variety of hands......where you will get paid off with aces if they don't suspect you have it.

Perhaps this caveat swings the play from slightly negative EV to slightly positive?

I'll stick to limping my bad aces against 1-2 other limpers who play poorly, will pay me off with a lower pair, and not tend to be check-raisers.

A6 is probably the worst case........and maybe I'll avoid this particular hand. The A5, A4, A3, A2 also give you the chance at a wheel, and hands like A8, A9 will simply hold up more against other A-suited hands which limp in early.

Thanks for the comments on this play from all.....and if there are more thoughts on this they are welcome.

Peak

[bernie]

"I'll stick to limping my bad aces against 1-2 other limpers who play poorly, will pay me off with a lower pair, and not tend to be check-raisers"

dont forget about the players behind you who may be good players. if youre going to play A6o here, id raise with it and try and get players out behind me. especially if they play solidly. youd hafta cringe a little if you limped and a player like that raised behind you. take the whole table into account, not just the players acting in front of you. think strategically about it.

b