$22: 77 push after minimum raise?

[chipolino]

***** Hand History for Game 2731698564 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 15841324) - Sun Sep 18 03:22:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 14282 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: Darwin2k (1190)
Seat 3: jgravmod (520)
Seat 4: Stapoopski (550)
Seat 5: Marbz (2368)
Seat 8: bep88 (1820)
Seat 9: poobeard123 (967)
Seat 10: Hero (585)
Stapoopski posts small blind (50)
Marbz posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero[ 7s, 7c ]
bep88 folds.
poobeard123 raises (225) to 225
Hero???

I was gonna push here if it got folded to me, now that this guy puts a mini raise do I still push here?

[schwza]

i'd fold. you have 0 FE, and it's unlikely you'll be better than 55/45. plus there a lot of people left to act.

[jeffraider]

I'd fold here instantly I think. He's not folding and who wants to take the chance with 77 here?

[splashpot]

Well I don't know. If he doesn't push, he's still screwed. His chances of getting a better hand than 77 within the next 3 hands is slim. Is he better off folding this and pushing any 2 later when he is the opener?

[jeffraider]

[ QUOTE ]
Well I don't know. If he doesn't push, he's still screwed. His chances of getting a better hand than 77 within the next 3 hands is slim. Is he better off folding this and pushing any 2 later when he is the opener?

[/ QUOTE ]

He'll probably find a better spot than this, not just a better hand. Basically, 77 that's definitely seeing a showdown just isn't as +EV as a weaker hand that has a decent chance of not seeing a showdown. Some people tend to get too desperate in spots like this, I think, when there is lots of equity just laying around waiting to be had in future hands. "OMG 5BB POCKET PAIR ALL IN!" hehe

Also, look at the initial raise and tell me that doesn't have a better than average chance of being an overpair.

[splashpot]

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[ QUOTE ]
Well I don't know. If he doesn't push, he's still screwed. His chances of getting a better hand than 77 within the next 3 hands is slim. Is he better off folding this and pushing any 2 later when he is the opener?

[/ QUOTE ]

He'll probably find a better spot than this, not just a better hand. Basically, 77 that's definitely seeing a showdown just isn't as +EV as a weaker hand that has a decent chance of not seeing a showdown. Some people tend to get too desperate in spots like this, I think, when there is lots of equity just laying around waiting to be had in future hands. "OMG 5BB POCKET PAIR ALL IN!" hehe

Also, look at the initial raise and tell me that doesn't have a better than average chance of being an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. Now let's say he does fold. He's not the opener next hand. Next thing you know, he's UTG with 72o. Push? Seriously, I find myself in situations like this all the time. When I am given no good spot to push until I am UTG with crap.

Sorry for the partial thread hijack, but I assume the OP must have considered this when making his decision to push or not.

[jeffraider]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well I don't know. If he doesn't push, he's still screwed. His chances of getting a better hand than 77 within the next 3 hands is slim. Is he better off folding this and pushing any 2 later when he is the opener?

[/ QUOTE ]

He'll probably find a better spot than this, not just a better hand. Basically, 77 that's definitely seeing a showdown just isn't as +EV as a weaker hand that has a decent chance of not seeing a showdown. Some people tend to get too desperate in spots like this, I think, when there is lots of equity just laying around waiting to be had in future hands. "OMG 5BB POCKET PAIR ALL IN!" hehe

Also, look at the initial raise and tell me that doesn't have a better than average chance of being an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fair enough. Now let's say he does fold. He's not the opener next hand. Next thing you know, he's UTG with 72o. Push? Seriously, I find myself in situations like this all the time. When I am given no good spot to push until I am UTG with crap.

Sorry for the partial thread hijack, but I assume the OP must have considered this when making his decision to push or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you fold 72o UTG with 5BBs. I frequently let the blinds hit me at 50/100 with 600ish left, it's not the end of the world. You can find a hand in the BB, open push from the SB or open push from the button/CO if you get the chance and I'd take an any two push from the SB/Button/CO here over facing down a raise with 77, I think. I think I play differently in these spots than most people though, but I have really good results with short stacks.

[45suited]

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Of course you fold 72o UTG with 5BBs. I frequently let the blinds hit me at 50/100 with 600ish left, it's not the end of the world. You can find a hand in the BB, open push from the SB or open push from the button/CO if you get the chance and I'd take an any two push from the SB/Button/CO here over facing down a raise with 77, I think. I think I play differently in these spots than most people though, but I have really good results with short stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]

agree 100%

[chisness]

yeah be careful that you don't push too weak of a hand utg here -- you still have 4 BB even if you have to fold both blinds

[EnderFFX]

[ QUOTE ]
***** Hand History for Game 2731698564 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 15841324) - Sun Sep 18 03:22:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 14282 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: Darwin2k (1190)
Seat 3: jgravmod (520)
Seat 4: Stapoopski (550)
Seat 5: Marbz (2368)
Seat 8: bep88 (1820)
Seat 9: poobeard123 (967)
Seat 10: Hero (585)
Stapoopski posts small blind (50)
Marbz posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero[ 7s, 7c ]
bep88 folds.
poobeard123 raises (225) to 225
Hero???

I was gonna push here if it got folded to me, now that this guy puts a mini raise do I still push here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you fold here if the blinds can run through you without going up. If the blinds go up before then run through you, then I think this needs to become a push.

585 - 150 = 435, a little over 4 BB, some fold equity
585 - 225 = 360, a little over 2.5 BB, little fold equity

[splashpot]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course you fold 72o UTG with 5BBs. I frequently let the blinds hit me at 50/100 with 600ish left, it's not the end of the world. You can find a hand in the BB, open push from the SB or open push from the button/CO if you get the chance and I'd take an any two push from the SB/Button/CO here over facing down a raise with 77, I think. I think I play differently in these spots than most people though, but I have really good results with short stacks.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'll keep this in mind.

[jeffraider]

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[ QUOTE ]
***** Hand History for Game 2731698564 *****
100/200 Tourney Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) (Tournament 15841324) - Sun Sep 18 03:22:48 EDT 2005
Table Table 14282 (Real Money) -- Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 7
Seat 2: Darwin2k (1190)
Seat 3: jgravmod (520)
Seat 4: Stapoopski (550)
Seat 5: Marbz (2368)
Seat 8: bep88 (1820)
Seat 9: poobeard123 (967)
Seat 10: Hero (585)
Stapoopski posts small blind (50)
Marbz posts big blind (100)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero[ 7s, 7c ]
bep88 folds.
poobeard123 raises (225) to 225
Hero???

I was gonna push here if it got folded to me, now that this guy puts a mini raise do I still push here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you fold here if the blinds can run through you without going up. If the blinds go up before then run through you, then I think this needs to become a push.

585 - 150 = 435, a little over 4 BB, some fold equity
585 - 225 = 360, a little over 2.5 BB, little fold equity

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a really good point, and one I hadn't considered. Hmmmmm. I think you may be right here, I was thinking that being left with 4BB was good stuff, but 2.5 BB is getting into "Ah [censored] it I'm all-in" zone. I agree here, and honestly, looking at when the blinds move up is something I rarely do so thank you for giving me something to try to improve on in my sets today.

PS I read your blog good luck going pro!

[chipolino]

I folded here just(for the reasons you gave) the blinds weren't going up just yet. I definatelly would have pushed if the blinds were hitting me with 75/150. But 435 is just enough folding equity (not much) for me to wait for a better spot. Moreover, I knew if I pushed here I was definatelly getting called by the mini-raiser and at this stage I don't wanna get called, I wanna STEAL! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Good reply man.