A mind boggling strategy... please play devil's advocate and explain

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

In playing live 10/20 in a variety of settings recently (all live), I have found several players that like to limp or cold-call with AK (suited and offsuit). This is from all positions. I have seen it done UTG, MP opening and LP with multiple callers. I have also seen many cold-calls from LP and the blinds after a single raise. Sometimes the AK-limper is an aggressive player that will raise with AT/KJ but won't raise his AK. Othertimes the offender is a super-passive player who never reraise pre-flop.

This is certainly deceptive but can it ever be +EV?

[TheHammer24]

Will the player get more chips from the disguising of his hand or will he make more from the preflop raises?

I have never played 10/20, but at 2/4 even when I raise and I flop a K or an A, people are reluctant to fold and call down and show down the second best hand. I make money from the preflop raise.

Also, you can often make money with AK when the flop is QT7. As you raised preflop and villians will often put you on Big pair's, AK etc. (I notice the two preceding paragraphs contradict each other).

It's advantageous to have the lead in a hand.

[SeaEagle]

The logic given most often is that you miss AK 2/3 of the time, so why not wait to see the flop before you commit money to the hand?

Sometimes I'll see aggressive players limp w/ AK in the same spot they might limp w/ AA. I can't figure this out, but I guess they think the deception pays off more than a raise.

And no, I can't imagine it's ever +EV. AK is still a drawing hand and all the advantages of raising (thinning the field, gaining fold equity, increasing your chance of a free card later, etc) must outweight those rare cases when you draw in A6 and he pays you off when he would have folded PF.

[MaxPower]

It depends on what you mean.

It is +EV, but there is another way to play which is more +EV.

[kurosh]

To pwn dominated aces and kings.

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In playing live 10/20 in a variety of settings recently (all live), I have found several players that like to limp or cold-call with AK (suited and offsuit). This is from all positions. I have seen it done UTG, MP opening and LP with multiple callers. I have also seen many cold-calls from LP and the blinds after a single raise. Sometimes the AK-limper is an aggressive player that will raise with AT/KJ but won't raise his AK. Othertimes the offender is a super-passive player who never reraise pre-flop.

This is certainly deceptive but can it ever be +EV?

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First off, with AKs you should reraise every time no matter what position you are in and no matter what the action is ahead of you, if you dont do this you lose value. The only exception to this is if you are against a PFR that only raises AA or KK, then you should fold. With AKo there are many situations preflop where it may be best to just call the raise. For instance, lets say you have AKo in the SB and 4 people limp in and an aggressive player on the button raises, and you know that no one will fold if you 3 bet it, then you should just call in this spot and go for the checkraise if an Ace or King flops to force the people in the middle to call 2 bets cold. By not reraising preflop you put yourself in a stronger strategic position postflop. There are other reasons to just cold call a raise with AKo and there are even valid reasons to limp with AKo but with AKs, there is no scenario I can think of where calling is better than raising.

[paperboyNC]

If you play the same opponents frequently, you should occasionally limp AK just so that your opponents can't do this thinking:

"He can't have AK because he didn't raise pre-flop."

If you are playing thinking opponents that notice these things, you have to mix up your game.

If I play in person with people that are attentive, I'll occasionally count out a raise before the hands come to me, but then just call or fold. People who watch me count out the raise think they are really smart noticing that I'm about to raise.

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It depends on what you mean.

It is +EV, but there is another way to play which is more +EV.

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AKo or AKs are both +EV no matter how you play it, so when someone says +EV or -EV they must mean it in relative terms.

[shant]

I'd say the break down for live players is like this:

3% = Deception
97% = AK is a drawing hand/fold for one bet on missed flops/flick cards and show others while mucking/watch the next flop and point out how NOW an Ace or King came/They SSCKY

[winky51]

Here is how I see it.

As a player you raise with AK, period. This gives you the best possibility of shortening the field and winning pots. Overall the most money with the most chance to win. Raising also lets other players know "hey I got a strong hand" so players will tend to bluff less at you when that A or K is on the board. It is also easy to play in my opinion when you raise.

Now lets look at limping: You limp so now you entice a ton of other players to limp. So now your faced with a greater possibility of losing the hand and more money. "you either win a small pot or lose a large one..." Becuase you have AK and no one knows it you tend to call down more thinking they have Ax or Kx crap. Fine they say you can limp vs tough tables to change your play but I think I would rather raise more hands than limp with good ones.

Even from a psychological effect. You limp and nail some player for money. Now he's pissed and is out to get you for limping in with a good hand. I know I get annoyed.

Now instead you raise with more hands. People now fear you more and get confused AND pay you off when you have a real hand. Now you look unbeatable. Thats why I hate good LAGs.

Cold calling with AK. Why? Why give more meat on the table for other people to join. Especially with players that can act behind you. Even if you cold call on the button. Now 1/2 the time the SB calls, and 2/3 the time the BB calls. So much of the time there are 4 players to the flop.

The good side for players who limp/cold call. We get affected by this. We lose money to them even though their play is wrong. Their play is a strategy that affects a tiny range of hands for profit compared to the rest of the groups. But even then its not much. Why? we are aggressive players betting all the way down.

Lets say I got AQ UTG and raise. FISH A calls in MP2 with AK. all else fold.

Flop hits the ace, bet flop, bet turn get raised, check call river. I lost 4.5 BBs overall losing to AK.

Now lets look if he 3 bets preflop. A comes on the board. check call, check call, check call. You either way ahead or way behind. I lost 4 BBs. He reraises and the difference between reraising and limping is one small bet.

So you with the AQ are the only loser. But ironically its 1/2 a small bet more. But by him cold calling he now invited more people to come in which overall drops his +EV.

Also lets say you hit 2 pair AQ. How is he going to get away from his hand as cheap? Hes got AK, he knows you don't know he has AK so why not keep reraising, from his point of view. So I think he loses more when he is behind.

I know when I used to, key word there, limp with AA and I got raised my thoughts were "he doesnt know I got AA I got him, he thinks I got top pair". Well I'll tell you this limping has cost me almost every single time or I didnt win anything.

I limp with AK and the flop comes with an ace. I bet into 4 people 1st in. "hmm he must have an ace, I fold" or some Ax calls you down at best. But since the fish is calling a raise with Ax anyways and calling you down you are actually losing money by letting others in when before you had it heads up dominating his hand. Only players that can beat the A on the flop are calling. Even fish respect the ace on the flop in an unraised pot.

my 2 cents.

[@bsolute_luck]

i don't play 10/20, but i don't like giving trash better odds to suckout on me plus my style is more aggressive so i like to raise and have them not know if i have a good or bad hand than raise with junk and limp with good.

too many times i get fancy with AK/AA and such and the SB/BB who would have folded their weak hand suddenly catch enough to hang on and river a hand that beats me /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[winky51]

Oh one exception to reraising is when your in the SB and there is a bunch of callers already and a raise to your left. I think its a better play and usually all check to the raiser who will bet, now you raise isolating him from the others if you hit. If you don't, EEEEEzzzzz fold.

[MaxPower]

In certain games you should limp with AKs in EP some of the time.

Cold-calling with AK or AKs as a regular part of your strategy has to very bad. There are probably times to do it, but you need a specific reason.

Most people who cold-call witht these hands will cold-call with many other hands.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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i don't play 10/20...

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You can assume that live 10/20 plays very similar to 2/4 or 3/6 online (but looser and worse /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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It is +EV, but there is another way to play which is more +EV.

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Touche Mr. Power... but you know what I meant...

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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I'd say the break down for live players is like this:

3% = Deception
97% = AK is a drawing hand/fold for one bet on missed flops/flick cards and show others while mucking/watch the next flop and point out how NOW an Ace or King came/They SSCKY

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I think that is pretty accurate....

[peterchi]

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They SSCKT

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-nit