Last Post for the Night - AJs UTG

[Student Caine]

Villain is LPP 45.28/4.72/1.28

I think that this one is pretty straight forward, but I just want to be sure. I bet the Turn as I was afraid to give a free card to the flush draw.

Looking for criticism on all streets please:

Party Poker 1.00/2.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(9 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>.

Flop: (5.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (8.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB.

[thesharpie]

I call down from the flop raise.

[fire_fly]

wow, this is a tough hand, I hate hu. Well, not REAL tough, you are going to a showdown, but to but the turn or not bet the turn...

but I like the way you played it. He may have you beat w/ a better kicker (or unlikely 2pr/set) but I think you are ahead here enough of the time to bet out on the turn again.

Only thing I'm not sure of though, is that you imply he might have been trying for a "free card." But if you have stats on him being 45/5, sounds like a donk to me, and I don't think donks know about "the free card play."

anyone think reraising the flop and betting the turn is out of the question?

[hyp]

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]
anyone think reraising the flop and betting the turn is out of the question?

[hyp]

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats how I'd play it. Calling down after one flop raise is weak.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone think reraising the flop and betting the turn is out of the question?

[hyp]

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats how I'd play it. Calling down after one flop raise is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, atleast my thinking isint way out of line...
im still new so i dont want to go out and give faulty advice /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[hyp]

[lufbradolly]

3 bet the flop he won't cap it with a flush draw. If he does then cap i'd check/call the rest of the way.

[imported_The Vibesman]

Bit of a tough one without more solid reads, but if you think he's raising for the free card, then 3bet the flop. If he caps I go to check/call. Against tighter opponents I may find a fold, but there's a lot of people out there I'd want to show down against.

[Fantam]

3-bet the flop. Villain might have raised you with Ax, hoping that you have a smaller pocket pair.

If villain caps the flop, I check call to showdown. If villain calls the flop 3-bet, I lead the turn.

I play the rest of the hand, the same as you.

[TheHammer24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
anyone think reraising the flop and betting the turn is out of the question?

[hyp]

[/ QUOTE ]

No, thats how I'd play it. Calling down after one flop raise is weak.

[/ QUOTE ]

3-Betting the flop is tough because if he caps and bets the turn, you may have to fold.

If we 3-bet and villain "just calls", I would still turn to check/call mode. I don't think a villain indicates weakness or a draw by not capping the flop. In fact as a villain in this situation with AK or AQ, I often DON'T cap as it improves the chance I can raise on the turn.

Right or wrong, not sure. Just a thought.

[Redd]

The discussion in this thread is very weak-tight IMO. TPGK is a monster HU; Villain will be on a worse ace (or even a ten) or fd a good majority of the time here. I'd 3-bet the flop and call down if capped.

[bozlax]

The turn donkbet doesn't make any sense to me. If he's raising the flop heads-up on a flush draw he doesn't know what he's doing (I'm reluctant to support that idea with your "read", however...you didn't tell us how many hands it's over, for instance). So, you're actually putting him on a worse ace, Tx, a set, or a garbage-bluff, here.

Two possible lines: the first is the straightforward one, 3-bet the flop/call the cap, and call down from there; the less straightforward one (and the one I'd employ if my read was that the Villan was over-aggro with second pair or TPWK) is call the flop raise, and check-raise any card on the turn, calling down if 3-bet, firing again on the river if he just calls.

[bozlax]

By the way, what did he have?

[Student Caine]

As requested:

Villain had AQo.

Thanks for the input all, you have pretty much confirmed what I thought my line should have been (3-betting the flop to see where I was then going from there).

At this point last night I was pretty gunshy and should have actually just logged off. In fact it was this hand coupled with my T9o hand that I posted about that made me realize my game was way off.

Looking back I cannot believe that I didn't 3-bet the flop *and then* decided to bet out the turn.

[MrWookie47]

[ QUOTE ]
(3-betting the flop to see where I was then going from there).

[/ QUOTE ]

You shouldn't be 3betting the flop to find out where you stand. You're 3betting that flop because you think you have the best hand. Information should never be the primary reason for betting or raising.

[ QUOTE ]
If he's raising the flop heads-up on a flush draw he doesn't know what he's doing

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say that? I'm reading Weighing the Odds right now and the discussion of the free card raise assumes a heads-up hand (at least the mathematical analysis portion). I've actually been meaning to ask about this, because some of the assumptions Yao used to show the superiority of the free card raise seemd questionable to me. (Specifically that your opponent would stop betting if a third flush card came, even if you hadn't raised.)

[eisanm]

I would 3bet the flop for 2 reasons:

1. I still think I have the best hand against a random cold caller with no reads other than him being very loose.
Which further indicates that he is capable of cold calling with, for example, A7o.

2. I gain some more information this way. Either he has 2pair/trips where he will probably 4bet (since he already raised it thus not waiting for a turn raise).

If he calls my 3bet I bet the turn blank again,
if it looks dangerous I might check. I would probably bet the turn no matter what and fold to a raise if there is a 3rd flush on board.

If he 4bets the flop he probably has 2pair or trips and I would be likely to check/fold the turn in that case, unless we improve our hand in which case I would probably call down .

[Student Caine]

[ QUOTE ]
Information should never be the primary reason for betting or raising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, then this is something I will need to fix because I routinely bet or raise to see where I am (you are right in this instance I think that I may have the best hand).

Does this rule apply to NL/PL poker as well or just limit?

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he's raising the flop heads-up on a flush draw he doesn't know what he's doing

[/ QUOTE ]

What makes you say that? I'm reading Weighing the Odds right now and the discussion of the free card raise assumes a heads-up hand (at least the mathematical analysis portion). I've actually been meaning to ask about this, because some of the assumptions Yao used to show the superiority of the free card raise seemd questionable to me. (Specifically that your opponent would stop betting if a third flush card came, even if you hadn't raised.)

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain is LPP 45.28/4.72/1.28

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you think this villan knows about the free-card play?