Zoine Busted by Hero Cloutier

[Iplayboard]

My question is, How could somebody make it to heads-up in a WSOP event after reading Cloutier's book, Championship NL and PL Holdem?

[JackWhite]

Yeah, Cloutier has no idea what he is talking about. What a total idiot. He obviously has no idea how to play the game.

[Iplayboard]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Cloutier has no idea what he is talking about. What a total idiot. He obviously has no idea how to play the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously he knows how to play the game, but that doesn't change the fact that his book is complete [censored].

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Cloutier has no idea what he is talking about. What a total idiot. He obviously has no idea how to play the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously he knows how to play the game, but that doesn't change the fact that his book is complete [censored].

[/ QUOTE ]

well, i doubt that he played a bunch and realized which parts of the book work and which dont. that would be silly.

[wall_st]

I guess you have not read positively fifth street. McManus swears by the thing, not that he was a particularly great player at the time but he used it like his bible during the tourney.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess you have not read positively fifth street. McManus swears by the thing, not that he was a particularly great player at the time but he used it like his bible during the tourney.

[/ QUOTE ]

McManus used it to double up against TJ and take the lead in the WSOP ME.

McManus raised with AK, TJ reraised with A9 (TJ's book says only reraise with AA or KK) and McManus called. The flop comes rag, rag, rag. McManus checks, TJ bets, McManus calls (TJ's book says check/fold AK if you miss the flop). The turn is another rag. McManus checks, TJ takes McManus allin, McManus calls.

haha, I dont know if that hand is a greater insult to the credibility of the book, or to the guy who said he used it as his bible.

TJ's book is great, if only for entertainment value. It's full of amusing situations, bad beats, and great calls. And i mean, come on, that's just fun to read. Also, More so than most poker books, it gives you an insight to how a top professional player thinks. Unfortuneately for us (the reader), Cloutier's a feel player, which means its hard to structure of make sense of his moves, to us at least.
TJ just "knows" when to call, raise, or fold top pair.

and you should too....

Throughout that ME, it was well known McManus was using Cloutier's book as bible. He told TJ and TJ knew it. His call on that hand reflects his thought that TJ assumed he would follow the book's advice and McManus' feeling Cloutier was trying to push him around. It was a good call, IMHO.

<font color="red"> haha, doofus </font>

[TheBlueMonster]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, Cloutier has no idea what he is talking about. What a total idiot. He obviously has no idea how to play the game.

[/ QUOTE ]yea, I mean come on, he's never won the main event

[Tyler Durden]

TJ Cloutier's book is awful. I suggest burning it or giving it to someone you dislike.

Steve Zoine is a hell of a nice guy. He was at my table for Friday's $2500 NL at the Borgata Open last week. Later I was talking to him on the casino floor and he offered to get my friends and I ahead in line at a restaurant by using his Black Label Borgata card. Great guy.

[ddubois]

My question is, how can TJ call with A5o when there's been a bet, a re-raise, and Zoine subsequently went all-in? It seemed downright awful to me. He can hope there's a slim chance that Zoine is with KQ or 44, but he's almost guranteed to be a huge dog. Was he getting the 2:1 he needed by the last bet?

[pokergripes]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is, How could somebody make it to heads-up in a WSOP event after reading Cloutier's book, Championship NL and PL Holdem?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree...it's yet another example of somebody who is a great player, but can't really teach what they do. So much of TJ's game is reading the particular situation (not perfectly all the time, obviously, but way better than us), that the caveat at the end of any poker "rule" of "but that's just usually, and it of course depends on the situation, players, reads, etc." makes it particularly worthless in the case of somebody who has a "rule" that they then disregard a lot of the time based on those soft factors, enabling them to win even though "only re-raise with AA or KK" would make them lose if they always did it that way...

However, his stuff is immensely entertaining due to the stories, color, etc., so I read it anyway and then sometimes re-raise with merely QQ if the situation warrents it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bigdaddydvo]

TJ calls Pocket Queens "a small pair" in his book.

Please.

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
TJ calls Pocket Queens "a small pair" in his book.

Please.

[/ QUOTE ]

Incorrect. TJ classifies big pairs as AA, KK, &amp; QQ. He calls JJ a medium pair.

[Bigdaddydvo]

Find the section where he talks about his buddy from the Texas Road gambling days, when he'd win w/QQ, he'd announce "One Small Pair"

Not that 2+2 publishing needs any extra support around here, but their books are always so well thought out and organized. I bring this up to contrast the impressions you are giving of TJ's book. This extra level of structure and orgranization makes digesting information so much simpler by comparison.

Doyle is another author who writes about his feelings in a more free-flowing style. There is powerful insight in Super System, but the style of writing is inferior to S&amp;M &amp; HOH IMHO.

I imagine when I go and read SS for the second time it will offer me much more since I have many 1,000s more real hands under my belt than at last peruse.

[bones]

[ QUOTE ]
It's full of amusing situations, bad beats, and great calls. And i mean, come on, that's just fun to read.

[/ QUOTE ]

I love reading about bad beats! Everytime a little IM box pops up, I get a tingle of anticipation, hoping it's someone telling me about how their aces got cracked by QJs.

Bah. Shitty book either way.