Some Concept Questions

[CIncyHR]

Day one: open limping

Ok, so as some of you have seen me here the last couple of days posting hands. I am new to full table, formerly a winning low limit 6max player. In addition to posting specific hands Im gonig to post one general concept question thats bugging me every day until I get a grasp on this. Hopefully it will help me improve my full table game and be atleast a little stimulating for everyone else. So here is todays:

In 6max one of the three pillars of winning play is to NEVER open limp.. In full table, it seems qite common. Starting hand charts seem to reccomend open limpnig UTG with no less than 20 different hands in loose games. Is this really profitable? What is the justification for this play? Dont we want to raise to take control of the hand? It seems that open limping in early position anyway is almost alwyas bound to put in 2 bets preflop OOP. Please explain the open limping in this game becuase every time I do it it makes me want to cry.

[Vote4Pedro]

dont do it

[benkath1]

It's generally not a good idea. In the UTG positions at a weak table, I may open limp more if I've seen very little raising preflop. Or if I'm ahead of a bunch of 50+/0/0 guys. It's still not a good habit to get into.

[Greg J]

I like the title of this post. I would suggest you post other concept questions you have into this same thread. That way others will have access to a lot of common (yet good) questions in one place.

As far as open limping goes, it depends on the circumstances (table). SSHE recomends open limping with KQo and AJo in ep -- then again most player here (myself included) like a raise UTG here. Other hands like A2s-A8s are fine to open limp at many loose tables with multiple callers. So are 22-88 (though 88 is getting more toward the raise end, table contigent), and hands like QTs and K9s.

There is a sliding scale though. Open limping UTG is one thing, but if it's folded to you in late MP or later it is probably never correct to open limp. Plus you can up yr hand selection a little more. QTo UTG is a fold, while QTo in the hijack is an open raise.

Of course I could go into the nuances and exceptions ad nauseum, but hopefully I've given you a few guidelines.

[stuartharris]

Thanks for the good post, Greg.

I've been troubled lately by the fact that I'm a big net winner with TT (and above) but a net loser with 77-99. I win with 33-66. I've wondered if this all comes down to my refusal to open limp with 77-99 (I don't play 66 and below from EP, and don't play 44 or 33 without at least four people in before me).

Should I be open-limping with 77-99 or maybe even folding?

[aK13]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the good post, Greg.

I've been troubled lately by the fact that I'm a big net winner with TT (and above) but a net loser with 77-99. I win with 33-66. I've wondered if this all comes down to my refusal to open limp with 77-99 (I don't play 66 and below from EP, and don't play 44 or 33 without at least four people in before me).

Should I be open-limping with 77-99 or maybe even folding?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sample size.

[@bsolute_luck]

like others have said generally i don't. but at the same time 6-max has

#1 uber-loose passives that play any 2 cards even more than full ring because "there are less people, so i'm bound to win more often", so at these tables where there isn't a lot of preflop raises, i'll limp 2nd in or UTG with suited connectors and pocket pairs lower than 66 (others i'm raising).

#2 also, and this is a topic i read discussion on in HUSH. if the blinds are loose and will call with any 2 cards and you have a good read on postflop and they won't "punish" you for open limping by raising you, i open limp from Button with weak offsuit Aces and some other stuff but i'm still learning this and studying it and would only suggest it after you have experience at 6-max.

[Greg J]

Yes sample size could be an issue here, but that does not mean his point is invalid. Plus, sometimes we can make cautious inferences from small sample (if this is a small sample), especially if you have consistent directionality. Sorry this is the social scientist coming out in me: even if you don't have "good enough" statistical significance, if you have consistant directionality across a number of models then you can make some inference (abliet cautiously). I think the same logic applies here.

I routinely limp a hand like 77 UTG. 99 I usually raise. I am a winner with all pocket pairs. Again though, it all depends on the table. Sometimes I will raise 77 in ep, and if the table is ideal (very loose, very passive) I will limp 99. To be clear, 99 is an open raise for me most of the time.

The moral of the story: what you do with 77-99 is table contingent. It's not like AA -- there is not only one right thing to do with these hands.

[marchron]

Bring back the boobies.

[/hijack]

[Greg J]

[ QUOTE ]
#2 also, and this is a topic i read discussion on in HUSH. if the blinds are loose and will call with any 2 cards and you have a good read on postflop and they won't "punish" you for open limping by raising you, i open limp from Button with weak offsuit Aces and some other stuff but i'm still learning this and studying it and would only suggest it after you have experience at 6-max.

[/ QUOTE ]
Intersting. I thought this would NEVER be correct. I will sometimes open call on the button in a tournament in this situation, but not in ring games. I might have to revise my position.

[numeri]

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#2 also, and this is a topic i read discussion on in HUSH. if the blinds are loose and will call with any 2 cards and you have a good read on postflop and they won't "punish" you for open limping by raising you, i open limp from Button with weak offsuit Aces and some other stuff but i'm still learning this and studying it and would only suggest it after you have experience at 6-max.

[/ QUOTE ]
Intersting. I thought this would NEVER be correct. I will sometimes open call on the button in a tournament in this situation, but not in ring games. I might have to revise my position.

[/ QUOTE ]
I actually caught this topic in HEPFAP. (Is that acronym right?) It mentions that if the blinds are particularly loose, you may want to consider limping with hands that you would otherwise try to steal with. This is, of course, assuming it is folded to you on the button.

It's something I haven't yet incorporated into my game, but it's always on my mind.

[deception5]

This is page 197. It's when the blinds are extremely loose - they will both call a raise >70% of the time so it's fairly rare. But yes it can be better to limp in that situation.

[benkath1]

[ QUOTE ]
This is page 197. It's when the blinds are extremely loose - they will both call a raise >70% of the time so it's fairly rare. But yes it can be better to limp in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that for protection purposes later in the hand, or only for marginal steal hands(K9, Q8 and the like)? It seems if they are going to call, it would be better to raise when you have the best of it than limp and give them a free look.

[Aaron W.]

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This is page 197. It's when the blinds are extremely loose - they will both call a raise >70% of the time so it's fairly rare. But yes it can be better to limp in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that for protection purposes later in the hand, or only for marginal steal hands(K9, Q8 and the like)? It seems if they are going to call, it would be better to raise when you have the best of it than limp and give them a free look.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you have two villains, your marginal steal hands have a very small equity edge. It's very hard to outplay two opponents at the same time postflop (even in position) and the pot is bloated to the point where villains may be drawing profitably against you when you flop no pair.

By limping preflop, you can induce villains to make postflop errors by calling without odds. You also allow keep from investing a lot of money with a tiny edge and wait for times you have a large edge.

In other words, when they are both very loose, raising preflop offers you no tactical advantages.

[fire_fly]

ok, just gotta say, i have a feeling i'm going to get reamed soooo hard for this BUT...

In contrast to what everyone else seems to be saying, I think that if the average player at the table sucks bad enough, open limping with quite a few hands is a good thing.

I'm talking if there are 2 or 3 or more 40+ vpip (and I'm currently playing 2/4, where I still see MANY of these guys) what's the point of raising KJo or ATo or pocket 6s?

If you're utg and have KJo, I think it's ok to limp. Let them come in behind you with their 87o and K4s.

Especially w/ low pp (2s-6s or 7s) limp away as long as the table is passive enough and you have bad enough players behind you. You WANT them to come in with trash so you can hit your set and make them chase their single overcard to the river while DRAWING DEAD.

And yeah, this is all talking about EARLY POSITION. Late position open raising is gOOOOOOt!

My 2c.

[Nilbud]

That's a great reply Greg and much more useful than Pedro's one line reply. In fact, I was going to post a very similar question, but the OP beat me to it.

What gives me the most trouble are the hands I'm not folding in a loose-passive game, but I don't think are good enough to raise. Hands like QTs, JTs etc. In EP, I would limp both if I think there's a good chance it won't be raised. From MP I'm folding QTs and open-limping JTs.

[CIncyHR]

This post is mouch more in line with what the hand charts seem to suggest.

My problem with open limping in EP is that you obviously have to play the hand OOP for the rest of the way. With little pairs this is OK, becuase youre playing exclusively for set value, but with hands like KJ, 99, QT, AT, etc. there are a lot of instances where you will get into tricky situations when you dont have position. It cant be right ot riase marginal stuff like this, but as a 6max player it certainly hurts to fold it, although from my limited experience folding seems like the right play.

[ QUOTE ]
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This is page 197. It's when the blinds are extremely loose - they will both call a raise >70% of the time so it's fairly rare. But yes it can be better to limp in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that for protection purposes later in the hand, or only for marginal steal hands(K9, Q8 and the like)? It seems if they are going to call, it would be better to raise when you have the best of it than limp and give them a free look.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is only for marginal hands that are going to be tough to play post flop if you miss. You still raise your better hands. I think the examples they give in HFAP is a6o or 55. Only if the blinds are very loose i.e. never folding. They say if you think you can steal the blinds >30% of the time you should still raise.

I do this sometimes. Especially if the blinds are not only loose but a little more aggressive post flop. That way you can punish them if you hit, but get away from the flop if it comes down bad.

[@bsolute_luck]

WARNING: DO NOT take this open-limping thing too far. DO NOT start thinking "oh well they're gonna cold call me anyways, so i'm not raising" or any other such nonsense. really it is something to THINK about and consider sometimes instead of auto-folding or auto-raising. i really caution myself and others when taking this line because it can lead to MAJOR problems later as well as missed value.

that's all, continue on peasants...

I definitely agree. I think in general you should be raising hands like 55 or a6o on the button, b/c you will fold out the blinds, or get it HU often enough for it to be the best play. I do it pretty rarely, just throwing out situations where it might enter your mind to do so.

At loose tables I open limp AJo, ATo, KQo, maybe KJo. At tighter tables they become a fold b/c you're not likely to get hands you dominate coming in after you. And that's where most of the values of these hands come from people that are playing K9 or QJ or worse types of hands.
I don't raise for several reasons, 1) I think a raise discourages these hands that you dominate from entering the pot 2) This might not be as good of a reason, but I like to keep the pot small to discourage people from chasing. I want to have one or two people calling me down with a dominated hand that has little room to improve.

I obviously raise with my better hands that have a better PF equity edge, but we're talking about playing pretty marginal hands OOP here.

[CIncyHR]

So Im going to keep gonig with this, in the same post as the mod requested. Sticking with preflop until I feel Ive got that down.

Today's topic is what to do with Axs in MP and LP. The situation I am talking about is with 2 or more limpers in front of you. In my normal 6 max game, a lot of Axs are easy raises becuase I frequently have the best hand, plus it pumps up the pot for a big draw. Now, in full table I would think the value of building a big pot with a hand like this is higer, though the high card value is obivously lower. My hand chart suggests limping in most positions with most suited aces below AJs. So basically the question is: at what point are these hands worth a raise? with a T or 9 kicker? If there are lots of limper (say 4) wouldw e drop even lower with the raising requirements? With fewer limpers do we drop lower because we get better high card value? In what position does this cease to be worth considering?

Trying to correct errors in the preflop play.

Hope this doesnt get buried. Discuss, expand, enjoy.

[CIncyHR]

I also meant to include the fact that an LP or late MP raise serves to take control of the hand, and we becomethe agressor. Therefore, we'll often get free cards, or increase our fold equity.

Also, how do game conditions affect this play?

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]

Also, how do game conditions affect this play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't raise a suited ace with limpers in if there's a threat of being re-raised. Ax doesn't have enough value to go to war against 5 people preflop with, so get in cheap when you can. Only value-raise Axs preflop against individuals who A)will pay off till the river with a mid pocket pair when your ace falls, B)will give you free cards to chase your draws with, or C)will immediately fold the flop if they don't hit.

If you're raising Ax habitiually against people that don't exhibit at least two of those traits, you're probably losing money there.

Multiway Ax is fine to limp/call with preflop for me.

[Greg J]

Your conclusion is right, but the reasoning is a bit off base.

[ QUOTE ]
Ax doesn't have enough value to go to war against 5 people preflop with, so get in cheap when you can.

[/ QUOTE ]
We are talking about AXs, which does play well multi way (4+), or HU, but not with only 2-3 others in (without dead money). That is because it can have super powerful draws, but also has the high potential to be dominated.

AXs a perfect example of the principle of the later you are as first in, the more likely you should open raise. I make ATs an open raise regardless of position. I will usually raise A9s, but not every time. You generally should not raise Axs where x<8 and there are 2 or more limpers -- but again that is not a hard and fast rule. Sometimes I will make a play like that to isolate really poor players if I think I can get people behind me to fold.

I think the lesson here again is table context.

I'm sure I'm missing something here and someone else will add some useful thoughts.

[CIncyHR]

So we are sure that with something like 4 or 5 limpers in front raising Axs is bad? Assuming that these are your standard LPP donks who will call with a ridiculous range of hands (many or most of which are behind Ax) isnt it OK to get lots of money in preflop witht he best hand and a huge draw? The real low A's have the wheel draw too.

Im sure theres a flaw in my logic somewhere since I play .50/1 /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Harv72b]

Grunching.

I don't like to do a whole lot of openlimping, but...it really depends on the texture of the game. If you're on a loose, passive table, there are plenty of hands which can profitably be limped from EP (think suited broadway/connectors/aces & small pocket pairs). In that kind of a situation, it's not only okay to openlimp with those hands, it's good to do so.

However...most online games are not going to meet these criteria, at least once you get to the .50/1 level. In these situations, you want to be much more selective about what you openlimp with; suited connectors & small pocket pairs are generally out. After a recent discussion we had on the small stakes forum, I've been reevaluating my thoughts on openlimping suited broadway from EP, and so far it's been working out okay when I experimented with this.

That said, unless practically every player behind me is way loose/passive, I'm not openlimping from MP2 on. If it's folded to me there & I want to play my hand, I'm playing it for a raise. The same thing goes if there's a really weak player on my right; if he's the only one in the pot and I have a hand worth playing, I'm raising to isolate. Blind steals & isolation plays are very important facets of a winning full ring game.

Of course, if the table you're on is tight/aggressive, you need to first uncheck the "auto-post blind" button so you can leave after this orbit, and then don't even think about openlimping from anywhere.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
Today's topic is what to do with Axs in MP and LP. The situation I am talking about is with 2 or more limpers in front of you.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends on the players who limped ahead of me, my table image, and the players left to act behind me. However, when you're talking about a game like .50/1 or below (or possibly even 1/2 full), I think it's just a standard limp behind--you'll have too many players limping in ahead of you with hands that actually have you dominated, and you're very unlikely to force out a (slightly) stronger ace behind you by raising. And that's basically what you're looking to do when you do raise.

If I'm playing 3/6 or maybe even 2/4, I have two ultraloose limpers ahead of me, the blinds are pretty tight and I have a good table image, I will raise with almost any suited ace. Certainly down to A7s. This is because:

-I stand a very good chance of folding out a better ace, at least A8-AT & maybe AJo, behind me.
-My hand is considerably better than two random hands, which is basically what I'm up against.
-I have an excellent chance of folding out 'tweener cards behind me (hands with 2 cards higher than my kicker but no ace--this is important because I'd love to be able to win if I pair my kicker).
-I am supremely confident in my ability to outplay these two opponents with postition postflop.

That's about the only time I can think of when I'd like raising a mediocre suited ace behind two limpers.

Behind one limper, or folded to me in MP3 or later, I'm raising any suited ace. Unless that one limper is a very tight, passive opponent--then I'm folding.

Behind 3 or more limpers, this is an utterly standard limp behind situation.

[Greg J]

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So we are sure that with something like 4 or 5 limpers in front raising Axs is bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
You are trying to oversimplify this. You aren't thinking about it correctly. It depends on the limpers. In general I don't like raising if I have several 60/1 players limping b/c you sould easily be dominated with a hand like A4s.

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming that these are your standard LPP donks who will call with a ridiculous range of hands...

[/ QUOTE ]
You will be surprised by how many clowns limp with AQ... or maybe not. I'm sure you've seen it.

[ QUOTE ]
...isnt it OK to get lots of money in preflop witht he best hand and a huge draw?

[/ QUOTE ]
Slow down! Huge draw? Most flops will miss you. Now, that does not mean you won't have the best hand preflop which makes a raise ideal. But there are a lot of clowns that limp with AJo, or TT, or other hands they should raise. Sometimes you reward them by raising. Now, in and of itself this does not make raising Axs a bad idea after limpers. Axs is often the best. Often you are exploiting a preflop equity edge, sometimes not. I kind of think of it as a play that increases yr variance more than increases EV, which is not necessarily "bad," since any increase in EV is theoretical money you make.

An A coming can be trouble if you don't play it right -- you know what reverse implied odds are. On the other hand I guess it could get people to check to you on the flop if you only make a 3 flush. I'm babbling. I perfer a limp most of the time. Sometimes I cold call A8s or A9s if there are a couple of other cold callers in front. Blah blah blah.

I don't think you loose much raising A6s after several limpers with low limping standards. I just keep it simpler I guess.

[ QUOTE ]
The real low A's have the wheel draw too.


[/ QUOTE ]
A6s is a better hand than A5s. Just so you know.

This post is longer than I intended and I'm tired.

[marchron]

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A6s is a better hand than A5s. Just so you know.

[/ QUOTE ]
SSHE says the wheel possibility makes A/5 a slightly better hand than A/6, but that's all.

[Bankuri]

To add something nobody has commented on. In full ring, you don't need to pump up the pot if you flop a strong draw. If there are a few limpers pre-flop, the pot will be plenty big enough to play your flush draw. And what's more, it will be small enough that your opponents will be wrong in chasing their gutshots and overcards.

[CIncyHR]

I think this is the best argument Ive read against raising in LP with Axs. From my limited experience I think what Ive noticed is that (with the exception of the really ridiculous 60/1 guys) the most prototypical player is the guy who will riase with any ace and any PP preflop. That being said I think in most typical micro games if raising Axs against limpers is -EV at all it is only slightly -EV.

However, I am now convinced that limping is the best play, although i just HATE not having control of a hand.

Thanks again for the input.