Calldown with AJo, capped preflop? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Cosimo

09-19-2005, 07:10 PM

This has been a really shitty week for me. I'm questioning everything. Of concern here, I'm having issues with when I should call down and when not.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 3-bets, MP2 caps, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls $0.25 (All-In).

Note MP1 calls all-in; he's making a last stand tournement-style. UTG+2 is 40/2, MP2 is 10/5, CO is new, and BB is 45/2 (on a small sample).

Flop: (24 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (6 players, 1 all-in)

Well I hit my hand. What about villain?

BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, MP2 raises, CO folds, BB folds, Hero ...

With MP2 at 10/5, I think I need to hit some miracle card to win this, like a jack or running KQ. That's a big pot, but MP2 is no fish. I have odds to go after my jack, so here goes.

1) Question one, call or raise? I really think I'm behind villain here, but UTG+2 is also a concern.

Flop: ... Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (15 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players, 1 all-in)

2) Check-call? There's "omg big pot, don't fold" and then there's 10/2.

benkath1

09-19-2005, 07:13 PM

I'd be a little concerned with the 10/5 guy, but I'd call down with your hand.

POKhER

09-19-2005, 07:22 PM

Over how many hands? AF is quite an important stat, can i see it.

5% im assuming thats pretty premium PP AK/AQs(/Ako-Aqo??)

I reckon calling down sucks ass.

I reckon calling here, donk betting the turn and folding to a raise etc is nicer?

Assume hes on a premium hand (Ak etc) this donk bet he will raise? Will he raise AQs?

It may help us pin his hands down so we can fold and exit this hand cheaply.

I dont see what we beat that he will constantly bet out with? But when checked to hes more likly to bluff, "Bluff raising" the turn is unlikly???

What do you guys reckon. I love calling flop raise and donk betting turn when i may be behind.

oh and after typing this i just realise calling down entices bluffs... Duh.

09-19-2005, 07:24 PM

I threebet to get a free turn, then check call river.

POKhER

09-19-2005, 07:27 PM

Three bet to give three turn?

1.5BBs for Flop/Turn.

Check/call, Check call = 1.5 bets too.

Thats not a good idea.

Call down or donk bet turn(Then take appropiate action to his play).

09-19-2005, 07:31 PM

So you think its better to call the raise on flop and donk bet(=1.5BB) than threebet(=1BB) and check? My thinking is that I dont want to lay this hand down and I dont want to put much money into it. Your play has more fold potential but is it worth it? Do you get better hands to fold? Will something worse call?

benkath1

09-19-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I threebet to get a free turn, then check call river.

[/ QUOTE ]

How excatly do you plan to get a free turn card OOP? If you are looking for a cheaper peel, 3 betting is not the was to do it.

I don't mind the 3 bet, but don't like your reason.

09-19-2005, 07:43 PM

You are right. I think I am calling and doing the donk bet now. Whats your reasoning behind a 3-bet?

POKhER

09-19-2005, 07:45 PM

Hes assuming villan calls the 3bet, then check behind us in fear of a check raise.

personally i think villan has a better hand already, and if not is going to bet into us when we check to him.

I just realised... PREFLOP FOLD YOUR AJo WHEN 2BACK TO YOU AND VILLAN IS 10/5. (EDIT: IGNORE - SO MANY CALLERS)

Call down: entices bluffers, is cheapest, we lose often.

3bet/Free turncard if it works is ok, if he caps peel then fold turn UI.

call flop, Donk bet turn in the attempt to:
call down by worse hands, Raised by better hands,make UTG+2 face 2cold?

thoughts everyone?

closer2313

09-19-2005, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is 10/5

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that his VP$IP and PFR ? If thats right I probably would have folded when it was 2 bets back to me preflop.

milesdyson

09-19-2005, 07:47 PM

fold preflop. even getting like 11:1.

AJo is terrible his capping range, and you're out of position. basically the only thing good heading into the flop is the pot is big. your position sucks, and you can't feel happy about either a jack-high or ace-high flop.

POKhER

09-19-2005, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is 10/5

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that his VP$IP and PFR ? If thats right I probably would have folded when it was 2 bets back to me preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that, then you see the callers...

he could hold QQ/KK and we hit our ace and beahead....

TheHammer24

09-19-2005, 07:49 PM

Villian is not 3 Betting AQ here. We're looking at TT-AA and AK. I think calling his raise and calling down is hte best line. THe pot is big enough and he makes this play with Premium Pocket pair on the flop. There are 8 Combos of AK, 3 JJ 6 QQ KK, and 3 TT. You look good to call down here. Assuming he caps preflop and raises the flop with all of these you are ahead of 15 comobos and behind 11.

I think he is much more likley to cap pf with JJ-AA then AK also. And he may just call TT. I like calling down as optimal. You want him to keep pushing you on the turn. On the river OOP I may bet/call to for extra value, as I believe you are ahead.

09-19-2005, 07:52 PM

I just hate these type of hands. I cant decide between 3-bet check, 3-bet and bet turn, or call flop and donk bet.

If villain is capping the flop I think check fold is a good play?
Assuming you call the raise and donk bet. Or you 3-bet and villain call and you bet out on the turn. What happens if villain calls? Check fold, Check call, Bet fold???

TheHammer24

09-19-2005, 07:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I just hate these type of hands. I cant decide between 3-bet check, 3-bet and bet turn, or call flop and donk bet.

If villain is capping the flop I think check fold is a good play?
Assuming you call the raise and donk bet. Or you 3-bet and villain call and you bet out on the turn. What happens if villain calls? Check fold, Check call, Bet fold???

[/ QUOTE ]

You are WA/WB. Calling down is much much better than 3-betting. 3-Betting lets him know his KK QQ JJ is beat and he doesn't put in extra bets on the turn trying to get you to fold your good ace that doesn't beat AK. 3-Betting also spews to his AK.

ThaHero

09-19-2005, 08:01 PM

Yeah I like a fold preflop as well against a 10/5

silkyslim

09-19-2005, 08:09 PM

im gonna want to fold pf here, you have to face 2 cold here, which is almost the equivalent of cold calling, something you dont want to do with the easily dominated and one-faceted AJo.

09-19-2005, 08:13 PM

sorry about this but I couldnt find it anywhere. Whats WA/WB?

benkath1

09-19-2005, 08:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sorry about this but I couldnt find it anywhere. Whats WA/WB?

[/ QUOTE ]

Way ahead/Way behind. Do a search, tons of threads on this.

Cosimo

09-19-2005, 09:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is 10/5

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that his VP$IP and PFR ? If thats right I probably would have folded when it was 2 bets back to me preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that, then you see the callers...

he could hold QQ/KK and we hit our ace and beahead....

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I was thinking when I called, given that it's 11:1. But I've been looking at AJo (which over about 8k hands I lost money with), and my study is really showing that it's just not that great. I think folding preflop, despite the odds, is prolly the best play.

--

Reading this thread, a good plan seems to be: call the flop, donk-fold the turn.

--

Results: I checked, UTG+2 bet, Villain just calls. I called. River: brick. Check, bet, call, call. UTG+2 had AQs, Villain had AKo.

gobboboy

09-19-2005, 11:37 PM

Even with seeing the results my thoughts are the same. Fold preflop. AJs, you can get by. AJo is an autofold. Even if you do call, you're looking for a jack high flop. Not ace high.

numeri

09-19-2005, 11:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, Hero raises, UTG+2 calls, MP1 3-bets, MP2 caps, 1 fold, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls $0.25 (All-In).

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
MP2 is 10/5

[/ QUOTE ]
OK, I'm coming in late here, but isn't this an obvious fold? Vs. a 10/5 player, what are we drawing to?