river card is dealt before last player gets to act: ruling?

[mikech]

10-25nl at borgata, limped pot, 4 players to the flop of T94, two hearts. sb checks, bb bets 100, limper 1 folds, limper 2 calls, sb calls. turn is an offsuit 3, sb checks, bb bets 300, limper 2 calls, sb has three black chips in his hand that he's about to throw into the pot but the dealer, clearly forgetting that the player still has cards, burns and turns the river, which is another non-heart 3.

what now?

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]

10-25nl at borgata, limped pot, 4 players to the flop of T94, two hearts. sb checks, bb bets 100, limper 1 folds, limper 2 calls, sb calls. turn is an offsuit 3, sb checks, bb bets 300, limper 2 calls, sb has three black chips in his hand that he's about to throw into the pot but the dealer, clearly forgetting that the player still has cards, burns and turns the river, which is another non-heart 3.

what now?

[/ QUOTE ]

River card is shuffled back into the stub, turn action commences, new river (with no burn) is dealt. Action proceeds on river.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

10-25nl at borgata, limped pot, 4 players to the flop of T94, two hearts. sb checks, bb bets 100, limper 1 folds, limper 2 calls, sb calls. turn is an offsuit 3, sb checks, bb bets 300, limper 2 calls, sb has three black chips in his hand that he's about to throw into the pot but the dealer, clearly forgetting that the player still has cards, burns and turns the river, which is another non-heart 3.

what now?

[/ QUOTE ]

River card is shuffled back into the stub, turn action commences, new river (with no burn) is dealt. Action proceeds on river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost right. Complete the action on the turn and then shuffle the premature burn back in (if completing the turn action didn't end the hand).

[AngusThermopyle]

[ QUOTE ]


This is almost right. Complete the action on the turn and then shuffle the premature burn back in (if completing the turn action didn't end the hand).

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

10-25nl at borgata, limped pot, 4 players to the flop of T94, two hearts. sb checks, bb bets 100, limper 1 folds, limper 2 calls, sb calls. turn is an offsuit 3, sb checks, bb bets 300, limper 2 calls, sb has three black chips in his hand that he's about to throw into the pot but the dealer, clearly forgetting that the player still has cards, burns and turns the river, which is another non-heart 3.

what now?

[/ QUOTE ]

River card is shuffled back into the stub, turn action commences, new river (with no burn) is dealt. Action proceeds on river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost right. Complete the action on the turn and then shuffle the premature burn back in (if completing the turn action didn't end the hand).

[/ QUOTE ]

no, mine is right. The burn stays out. Why would you reshuffle a card that was certainly not going to be the river card back in for the river?

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]

no, mine is right. The burn stays out. Why would you reshuffle a card that was certainly not going to be the river card back in for the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is how I understood it as well.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

10-25nl at borgata, limped pot, 4 players to the flop of T94, two hearts. sb checks, bb bets 100, limper 1 folds, limper 2 calls, sb calls. turn is an offsuit 3, sb checks, bb bets 300, limper 2 calls, sb has three black chips in his hand that he's about to throw into the pot but the dealer, clearly forgetting that the player still has cards, burns and turns the river, which is another non-heart 3.

what now?

[/ QUOTE ]

River card is shuffled back into the stub, turn action commences, new river (with no burn) is dealt. Action proceeds on river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is almost right. Complete the action on the turn and then shuffle the premature burn back in (if completing the turn action didn't end the hand).

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL I don't believe I wrote this, I was playing poker. Of course the burn stays there and you put the premature river card back in the deck. I was jsut pointing out that you complete action before shuffling.

Edit to add: I got in a hurry becasue everyone knows what happens on a "burn and turn" the floor's main job is to explain it to any players that might be new to poker the dealer will know what to do (every dealer I know has done this at some point).

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
...everyone knows what happens on a "burn and turn"...


[/ QUOTE ]

The OP didn't know.

I hope that he was just watching this 10-25 NL game. It frightens me to think that someone might be playing in a game that big, and not know this one.

[mikech]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...everyone knows what happens on a "burn and turn"...


[/ QUOTE ]

The OP didn't know.

I hope that he was just watching this 10-25 NL game. It frightens me to think that someone might be playing in a game that big, and not know this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
i play in this game regularly. the table debated the ruling for a good 10 minutes (i kept quiet, i wasn't involved in the hand and i wasn't sure of the proper ruling either), including aspects such as whether sb should be allowed to fold or be made to call as he clearly intended to, and whether the "natural" river could be allowed to stand if all three players in the hand agreed. sb ended up folding, although he originally meant to call. as i admitted earlier, i didn't know if the ruling was correct, since the arguments of some of the other players at the table also seemed to hold some merit.

and what in the world does knowing the proper ruling and playing in a game of that size have to do with each other? last i checked, if you have the money you can sit down. your sort of logic is much more frighteningly stupid than someone freely admitting they don't know something and asking a question.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
and what in the world does knowing the proper ruling and playing in a game of that size have to do with each other

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a common situation that you will see once every few sessions (sometimes more with certain dealers), it is suprising (but less so with the rise of internet poker) for someone to be playing in a higher limit game that is unfamiliar with what happens when the dealer deals prematurly.

You shoot the dealer. Give everyone's chips back. (don't forget to bust open the rake and jackpot boxes and get those chips out)

Call the floor manager for a setup. When he brings it tell him, "Next time a dealer screws up, you're gonna shoot him!"

Get a new dealer, and start a new hand.

It's called a "do-over."

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

it took me 1 minute to find this:

If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards do play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.

[youtalkfunny]

Please don't think that I'm calling you stupid, or trying to insult you in any way.

Hearing a $10-25 NL player ask about that rule is like hearing a major-league baseball player ask about the infield fly rule. It doesn't come up often, so he's not familiar with it. But if he asks me about it, my reaction would be, "How did you GET to this level?"

[youtalkfunny]

[ QUOTE ]
it took me 1 minute to find this:

If the dealer prematurely deals any cards before the betting is complete, those cards do play, even if a player who has not acted decides to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um...is that a five-card draw rule, or something?

Who's your source?

[ QUOTE ]
Um...is that a five-card draw rule, or something?

Who's your source?

[/ QUOTE ]


I stand corrrected, I copied / pasted the wrong line, regardless the answer is at cardplayer under general HE rules

[other1]

Since I hapened to be at the table and in the hand let me add a few things..

First, it was Q94, I remember this vividly because 94 ended up winning but my AQ would have won if the pairing of the 3s on the board stood up.

The point that caused some confusion was that the guy last to act, after pointing out that he was skipped, decided to remove himself from the confusion of the hand and just fold. This caused some at the table to feel that in effect the action was unaffected by the premature burn and turn so the card should stand. IE, the big reason to redeal here would be if someone got a free look at the river, but since the two people still in the hand did not, then it doesn't matter.

Anyway, even though I got screwed here and would have won the pot if the original river stayed, I agree with the floor ruling. The rules need to be applied consistently, and I think any time a card is turned before all players have acted it must get shuffled back in. I wouldn't have given it another thought except the guy next to me (not you mike - on my other side) kept telling me I got screwed.

[joeboe2001]

All of the answers I see here seem to be incomplete. Here is the applicable rule:

4. If the dealer turns the fourth card on the board before the betting round is complete, the card is taken out of play for that round, even if subsequent players elect to fold. The betting is then completed. The dealer burns and turns what would have been the fifth card in the fourth card’s place. After this round of betting, the dealer reshuffles the deck, including the card that was taken out of play, but not including the burn cards or discards. The dealer then cuts the deck and turns the final card without burning a card. If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner.

See Explanations, discussion # 2, for more information on this rule.

(The Explanations--which you can read for yourself on cardplayer.com--simply suggest a "better" rule in their neverending attempt to add to the confusion!)

[Photoc]

Nice quote but not right bud.

[ QUOTE ]
4. If the dealer turns the fourth card on the board before the betting round is complete

[/ QUOTE ]

We're discussing the river card, not the turn here. This rule doesn't apply if the turn (FOURTH) card is already been dealt.

[Forbin]

[ QUOTE ]
Nice quote but not right bud.

[ QUOTE ]
4. If the dealer turns the fourth card on the board before the betting round is complete

[/ QUOTE ]

We're discussing the river card, not the turn here. This rule doesn't apply if the turn (FOURTH) card is already been dealt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe you should read the whole thing before replying. The last sentence says, "If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner."

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe you should read the whole thing before replying. The last sentence says, "If the fifth card is turned up prematurely, the deck is reshuffled and dealt in the same manner."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you learned how to read all of my replies, you would know that I said that exact same thing in an earlier reply. So stop the sarcasm.

[Forbin]

It was not sarcasm, it was an earnest suggestion that you read before replying. It's something many people fail to do, and you seem to be in this group.

As for your "earlier reply," did you delete it? I only see 2 replies from you, the one pointing out the word fourth, and this one. Or am I required to go read all 1000+ of your prior posts to search for it? (that was sarcasm)

[Photoc]

Well, it looks like my reply did get deleted or lost somehow. Maybe I didn't hit continue, but I did write up a reply last night for this thread. I appologize for asking you to read a reply that never went through. That's my fault.

btw, I would have taken this to PM's but you are not accepting them.

[Rabid_Hippo]

Card gets shuffled back into the deck and a new river card is dealt.

Had this happen at a game a few months ago. It was wild, but the same card came out ... no one was expecting that (although I guess it was just as likely as any other card).

[boondockst]

[ QUOTE ]
Card gets shuffled back into the deck and a new river card is dealt.

Had this happen at a game a few months ago. It was wild, but the same card came out ... no one was expecting that (although I guess it was just as likely as any other card).

[/ QUOTE ]

You weren't at Tulalip were you? I had the same card situation thing happen to me...It was actually a testy situation. I had turned a straight and got all in with a villain with two pair. If he'd have hit his 4-outer after a reshuffle I'd have cried. Another case of a dealer not paying attention in mine.

I bet my straight in position, the villain check-raised. I "pondered" and said "reraise" and put the call out. The dealer seeing the call proceeded to bring the river card. Oh, and I was sitting in the 1 seat and players across the table heard me say "reraise"

[Forbin]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, it looks like my reply did get deleted or lost somehow. Maybe I didn't hit continue, but I did write up a reply last night for this thread. I appologize for asking you to read a reply that never went through. That's my fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. We all make mistakes.

[ QUOTE ]
btw, I would have taken this to PM's but you are not accepting them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never remembered to go to that page and check them, so I disabled them. Once I went there and saw 2 messages that were more than a month old. Rather than have people think I'm ignoring them, I just disable them.