Another floor ruling on mucked cards thread ( from Taj on Fri )

[jjnidguy]

hey guys,

this happened in the 200+25 friday night Taj tourney. It caused quite an uproar and the shift manager was called in. Give your opinion.

My friend was at the table and told me what happened.

OK, theres a noob crazy player UTG in seat 1, he goes all in when up to him preflop. It gets folded around to seat 10 who still has his cards in hole. All in raiser thinks everyone has folded and starts collecting his raise back and tosses in his cards face down, and just the corner of one card barely touches the muck.

Then seat 10 says "Im all in". He then immediately bursts out, I win no matter what, his hand is dead!

by the way, seat 10 is that indian guy who wears the purple hat and lakers gear all the time, taj regulars should know who im talking about.

when he says that, seat 1 grabs back his cards and turns them up. He has 9s and seat 10 has 4s. A big argument starts going of wether the hand should be played or if seat 10 automatically wins. The dealer, and floormen agree with seat 1, and say the hand should be able to be played. Seat 10 gets real mad and demands the shift manager. Shift manager defaults to floormen's descion.

I think this was a bad ruling. Seat 1 f-cked up, he deserves to lose.

did anyone see this? it shut down the table for like a whole level during the tourney.

[canis582]

I wonder how John Roberts would rule in the case of 'Intent v. Action'.

You know how when Notre Dame plays at home, they walk out to the field past a sign that says 'Play like a champion today'?

Poker players should have to walk past a sign that reads 'Action overrides intent'.

[Derek in NYC]

The 10 seat was shooting an angle. He should lose.

[Randy_Refeld]

As long as people believe this is a rule

[ QUOTE ]
Then seat 10 says "Im all in". He then immediately bursts out, I win no matter what, his hand is dead!

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THere will disagreements over this.

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I think this was a bad ruling. Seat 1 f-cked up, he deserves to lose

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Why should his hand be dead? Very few places have a rule that your hand is dead if it touches the muck (I played some place that had that on the wall and it actually came to a floor ruling they still ruled the waythe rest of the world does, give him his cards since they aren't IN the muck).

[RedRum]

[ QUOTE ]
The 10 seat was shooting an angle. He should lose.

[/ QUOTE ]
Angle shooters should be shot.

Drink More,
RedRum

[jjnidguy]

I know that the seat 10 guy is just angle shooting, and its not in great interest to the 'spirit of the game'

but rules are rules.

there are some things like this that are in the gray area.

if its in the gray area, usually a harsh descion should be made so the person learns from it.

plus, where do you draw the line?

can a player grab his cards from the muck if both slightly touch? what if the cards are 25% in the muck? what about 49%? 50%? 51%? 99%?

its just impossible to come up with a truly fair rule in that case. So a harsh strict one is the best way to do it, as in, if the cards touch the muck at all.

At least in my opinion

[Al_Capone_Junior]

Well, the guy in seat 10 was trying his best to shoot a major angle and win the pot without the best hand. He obviously does not understand the rules, and like many, he thinks that any time cards come in contact with the muck in any way, for any reason, they are totally and forever irrevocably dead. This just shows his ignorance, and the ignorance of many players these days, and some dealers and floormen too.

Cards may be retrieved out of the muck under various circumstances, at the discretion of the floor. This is ABSOLUTELY clearly one of those situations. Not only is the first guy's hand NOT dead, but seat 10 should be forced to call, despite the failure of his angle shot.

BTW, kudos to the shift manager for defaulting to his floorman's decision. After all, FLOORMAN'S DECISION IS FINAL. I've made many an unpopular ruling, and I always default to that rule.

Besides, it was a good ruling.

al

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
but rules are rules.

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And you found this rule where, then?

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its just impossible to come up with a truly fair rule in that case. So a harsh strict one is the best way to do it, as in, if the cards touch the muck at all.


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The right rule is the rule that upholds the integrity of the game and the spirit of fairness. How does ruling for an angle shooter uphold fairness?

Regards,

T

[Bremen]

Wow, I've always been under the impression that the Taj was a place that wasn't just full of nitty players, but nitty floors as well. Good to see my initial impressions may not have been that accurate.

Kudos to the floor on the ruling here.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

When an innocent mistake is made, clear intent should be the determining factor, not the absolute inflexible rules of action. If things are not done this way, angle shooters will have a field day at the expense of the new players that feed the games, for the major detriment of all poker.

al

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
The right rule is the rule that upholds the integrity of the game and the spirit of fairness.

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This is absolutely 100% true. Great response.

al

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
but rules are rules.

[/ QUOTE ]

And you found this rule where, then?

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its just impossible to come up with a truly fair rule in that case. So a harsh strict one is the best way to do it, as in, if the cards touch the muck at all.


[/ QUOTE ]

The right rule is the rule that upholds the integrity of the game and the spirit of fairness. How does ruling for an angle shooter uphold fairness?

Regards,

T

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an excellant responce. If someone wanted an example of what the rules say about cards in the muck it looks something like this:

(1) any hand that touches the muck is considered fouled
(2) a fouled hand may be declared

The floor has the right to rule in the spirit of fairness when a strict interpretation of the rules would be detrimental to the game; however, this case he is ruling by the letter of the rule. This isn't a case of pulling cards out of the muck, they were never IN the muck. Merely touching the muck does not kill a hand.