6-12 hand..............

[Schmed]

A /forums/images/icons/heart.gif 10 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif on the button. UTG Raises, 3 callers, I reraise, blinds fold, everyone else calls.

flop

6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif k /forums/images/icons/club.gif j /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

UTG bets, 3 callers, I call

turn

3 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

UTG bets, one fold, 2 callers, I call

river

6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

utg bets, callers fold, I raise, he calls then throws a fit because I drew out on his 2 pair, (KJ suited spades).

Thoughts,

Preflop I'm thinking I'm raising for value. I was pretty sure that I would keep my callers for an extra bet. I was thinking the initial raiser had me beat but I was trying to put myself in a position to win a big pot. If the flop didn't hit me at all I was gone......

Flop.

My thought is I have 7 outs plus the nut back door flush.

Turn.

I'm feeling better about things but I still didn't have a hand....just playing my outs....I thought about raising here with 15 outs,(really 12 because in hindsight all an A would have done was make me pay off) but really...I wussed out

River

Golden..........

I normally wouldn't post a hand like this but there was a player at the table that did nothing but whine about how he had me beat and how he couldn't understand how I could stay with such a hand............I wish I would have hit him with the line I have heard someone here use....shhhhhhhhh I'm staking your chips........

Question, how many of you would have raised the turn???

[Inthacup]

This is a good example of overly optimistic hand reading. You manage to put your opponent on the best possible hand for you to be up against. A10s is a dominated hand vs. a raiser and 3 cold callers. How many hands can he raise w/ UTG that you beat? This is obviously a loose raiser, and you got lucky here, because KJ and KQ are about the only two things you want him to have here. The 3-bet is a very bad idea IMO. For me this is a tough decision based on call or fold. Call if the raiser is loose and the callers are weak. Fold if the raiser is tight and only raises with high aces or big pocket pairs.

Flop: No way you have 7 outs. For you, the BEST hand he could have realistically is KQ, even then, you only have 6 outs. That combined with 3 callers in between and you and the raiser means much less than 7 outs. I'd say you have 5 outs(4 strait outs and 1 out for the backdoor flush).

Turn: No, I wouldn't raise here. You're going to have a showdown, you have 13 outs at best. I don't like jamming the pot when I HAVE to improve and there's no chance of picking up the pot uncontested.

Your hand reading is going to get you into a lot of trouble if you keep changing your read to the hand that would work out best for you.

[marbles]

Wacky game, playing with two jacks of spades AND two sixes of hearts.

I don't think I like the preflop 3-bet. As rarely as I'd condone coldcalling preflop, I think this is one of those cases. I'd coldcall here and hope both blinds come along in case I need them to fund a draw.

Flop I don't like counting the aces as outs. If an ace comes along, you're very likely beat by a preflop UTG raiser. So you consider your gutshot outs as 4, and maybe add one out for the backdoor flush draw. Pot's plenty big to see the turn with that.

Rest of the hand is pretty routine.

Disregard your opponent's tantrum after the hand.

[Bob T.]

Preflop, I think the three bet was too aggressive. With a preflop raiser, and 3 cold callers I think that my hand is behind, and likely dominated unless I get hearts. Since I would be drawing, I think I want the extra equity in from the blinds, and also better implied odds, so if I was going to play, I think I would just call. I also think that it probably would have been better to fold here. It's funny, if you had four limpers to you, I think you raise here every time, but when you have a raiser, and 3 could callers, I think you fold.

I predict that a lot of posters are going to hate this play, but I think it is well above horrible.

Flop, Given how passively your opponents played on the previous hand, I think a raise here for a free card might have been a good idea.

Turn, More outs, Good. I don't think that raising on the turn has much value. There are too many players in to win the pot here, and if one folds, not enough to get value in a showdown. Additionally, if you miss, you don't need to call a bet on the river, So I would hope to hit, and then raise the river, to get extra value.

river. Ni Han. Your opponent was unlucky, but after you saw the flop, for either 2 bets, or 3, he wasn't going to win this hand, because you had the odds to chase all along.

[Schmed]

Too funny...I was trying to reconstruct this play...it was from last Thursday night is my only excuse......

The river was a heart and he had a black jack and king that I thought were suited but now that I think back I really don't know for a fact. I do know that the flop was KJ both black and not suited......

[Schmed]

maybe I'm missing something, fundementally, with my drawing hands and specifically AXs preflop hands. I seem to remember a post by David that talked about A10 suited and how you lose money if you don't raise this preflop. I have also read some things in TH4AP that talk about similar plays. Like I said maybe I am just misunderstanding something with respect to my draws but I have to think that on the button it are least makes everyone worried about what I have and less inclined to try and make a move there.

[Inthacup]

I seem to remember a post by David that talked about A10 suited and how you lose money if you don't raise this preflop.

Do you consider raising and 3-betting the same thing?

[marbles]

"The river was a heart and he had a black jack and king that I thought were suited but now that I think back I really don't know for a fact. I do know that the flop was KJ both black and not suited......"

So it sounds more like he open-raised KJo UTG in a loose game. I predict dozens more "bad beats" for this poor gent in the near future.

[Schmed]

Well I guess I'm improving with my hand reading then. I used to get derided for always putting my opponenet on a the only hand that could beat me..... /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Really though my preflop raise was all about getting money in the pot if I hit. Like I said below maybe there is something I am missing in my studies but I seem to remember a post by David talking about this exact hand and how not raising it preflop was a huge mistake. I also recall some of that referenced in TH4AP. When you say that the only hands I have beaten are two I think that's a bit much. There are a few hands that I could beat that may cold call and raise there. He may be raising 10 10. I don't think that's overly optimistic. It's common to raise preflop with 10's even utg. Cold callers could be calling with any suited connector or face card suited. At least that's my thinking here.

I guess you're right about the outs. I was assuming that my A would be good. My thinking there was and is certainly flawed.

The only reason I ask about the turn is people would certainly bet their 4 flushes on a flop. I realize less money and all but still I was just wondering how many people would raise there I did think about it.

You are right about my hand reading. It is something I really have to and am working on.

[Schmed]

Good question really.

On some level yeah but I do see where you are coming from. Most people UTG will raise only premium hands. Now I didn't tell you anything about the player but it was obvious to me that he was "live". He may have been trying to represent more than he had. I had been doing pretty well that night, (pretty certain I had the most chips I didn't buy in front of me), and my image at the table, believe it or not, was tight aggressive. I really was only pushing it from position and often throwing away hands like k 10 from a EP. That being said I had position and a solid hand and wanted to be able to represent if I was given the chance.

[Bob T.]

I seem to remember a post by David that talked about A10 suited and how you lose money if you don't raise this preflop.

Do you consider raising and 3-betting the same thing?

Exactly! If everyone limps, your hand is a monster, (Clarkmeister calls it the Cali-monster) you raise. When EP raises, and there are three coldcallers, your hand is a mouse. Only against an aggressive raiser, is your hand worth playing, if you want to tackle an aggressive player with this hand, and then you have all those people that coldcalled. They must have something, and usually something that is a lot better than normal. On the button, you can probably call two bets in a multiway pot, but you need to be careful. An Ace high flop is likely to be trouble. You are looking for a flush draw, your gut shot draw, or two pair, or maybe a top pair of tens. Even then you could be in trouble.

[Inthacup]

When you say that the only hands I have beaten are two I think that's a bit much. There are a few hands that I could beat that may cold call and raise there. He may be raising 10 10. I don't think that's overly optimistic.

A10 is a huge dog to 10 10. A10 is a slight underdog to 99 and any pocket pair lower. A10 is a dog to any pocket pair especially 10 10 through AA, AK, AQ, AJ both suited and non. That leaves KQ and maybe KJ that he could raise with UTG.

[Nottom]

Pre-flop: I don't like 3-betting with a dangerous hand like ATs, you will just end up hanging yourself if you hit an Ace. Cold-call and hope the blinds play.

I would have a hard time believing you have more than 4 outs + the BD flush on the flop. What do you think a guy is raising with UTG? But there's a nice big fatty pot and your drawing to the nuts, so you still should call.

On the turn, I see no reason to raise. What is he gonna fold here that he would raise UTG? QQ, TT, AQ? (then again if he's raising KJ UTG, who knows) As it was you would have just gotten 3-bet most likely. Sometimes its good to just call.

River: Well this part is easy ...

P.S.: you might want to get the deck looked at, apparently yours has 2 6 /forums/images/icons/heart.gif and 2 J /forums/images/icons/spade.gif in it.

[Nottom]

There's a big difference between raising ATs after 4-5 limpers and raising after a UTG raise and some cold-callers. David was refering to the first situation when he said not-raising was a big mistake.