Two quick questions I have for Christians

[Saddlepoint]

1) Christ died only in penance for the sins of those who accept Him, correct? Meaning, those who choose consciously not to accept the Bible are still accountable for their own sins in the eyes of God?

2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

[Stu Pidasso]

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2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

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God created Adam and Eve free from sin. He also created rocks free from sin. However God gave Adam and Eve an attribute he did not give rocks and that was free will. Unfortunately Adam and Eve made some bad decisions in excercising thier free will.

Stu

[txag007]

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1) Christ died only in penance for the sins of those who accept Him, correct? Meaning, those who choose consciously not to accept the Bible are still accountable for their own sins in the eyes of God?

2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]


Christ died for the sins of mankind. If you choose to reject Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, then yes, you are still accountable for your sins in the eyes of God.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that creating humans free of the capability of sin was out of God's power, but rather say that He chose to create us with free will. He desires a personal relationship with us. How else would he know that our love is real if it not for our free will?

[jakethebake]

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Christ died for the sins of mankind. If you choose to reject Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, then yes, you are still accountable for your sins in the eyes of God.

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So if you're a sinner that has never heard of Jesus and therefore haven't rejected him, you're ok?

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How else would he know that our love is real if it not for our free will?

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Uuuh...Because he's God and supposedly omniscient?

[Saddlepoint]

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1) Christ died only in penance for the sins of those who accept Him, correct? Meaning, those who choose consciously not to accept the Bible are still accountable for their own sins in the eyes of God?

2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]


Christ died for the sins of mankind. If you choose to reject Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, then yes, you are still accountable for your sins in the eyes of God.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that creating humans free of the capability of sin was out of God's power, but rather say that He chose to create us with free will. He desires a personal relationship with us. How else would he know that our love is real if it not for our free will?

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I mean this all out of genuine curiosity, so I apologize if anything I say comes off as facetious - it's not intended.

The first question was somewhat rhetorical, your answer to the second question intrigues me, and I have a follow-up:

2a) If God granted human beings free will, presumably with the knowledge that in so doing He was creating beings that would be "imperfect" by His standards, was He also consciously aware that He was damning many of us to Hell?

I hope it doesn't come off like question 2 was a set-up - in fact I found both of your answers to actually be really unexpected and interesting, as the concept of having been granted free will always seemed like a given.

However, this point alluded to in 2a has bugging me for a while, and I'd be lying if I said I didn't ask question 2 with the hopes of eventually getting to this point. I suspect it may be a sticking point for many non-believers.

Basically:

We are naturally sinful, and as such, we would be damned if not for God's loving decision to send His son, etc, and for this we should be grateful because it gives us a way out of Hell, correct? But isn't God responsible for our sinful nature in the first place? Yes, we ate the fruit and everything, but He was the one who gave us free will, correct? Without which none of this would have been possible? Just understand that, in the agnostic or atheistic mind, this seems as though God is allowing us to be saved from a fate of His own design. So it would be kind of a screw job.

PS -- I'm not trying to be condescending or anything by capitalizing the pronouns of God and Christ, I'm sorry if I'm doing it incorrectly or if it's not appropriate. I'm just trying to address this respectfully because it's become apparent to me that this is very important to a lot of people.

[txag007]

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2a) If God granted human beings free will, presumably with the knowledge that in so doing He was creating beings that would be "imperfect" by His standards, was He also consciously aware that He was damning many of us to Hell?

We are naturally sinful, and as such, we would be damned if not for God's loving decision to send His son, etc, and for this we should be grateful because it gives us a way out of Hell, correct? But isn't God responsible for our sinful nature in the first place? Yes, we ate the fruit and everything, but He was the one who gave us free will, correct? Without which none of this would have been possible? Just understand that, in the agnostic or atheistic mind, this seems as though God is allowing us to be saved from a fate of His own design. So it would be kind of a screw job.


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You ask some good questions, and I'm not going to pretend to have all the answers. We do know this: God didn't create evil. He is good all the time and it is our sin that separates us from Him.

Your reasoning ultimately leads to the question: If He knew we were going to be damned to Hell, why create us in the first place? One of the few things the Bible tells us about our creation is that God made man because He was lonely. As I said before, He desires a relationship with us. Other than that, I don't know. There may be some things that we don't fully understand until we get to Heaven.

[jakethebake]

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We do know this: God didn't create evil. He is good all the time and it is our sin that separates us from Him.

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how do you know this?

[txag007]

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Quote:
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We do know this: God didn't create evil. He is good all the time and it is our sin that separates us from Him.
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how do you know this?

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Because evil does not exist as a substantive thing. Just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is the absence of good. God created all things, but our separation from Him is what results in evil.

[jakethebake]

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Quote:
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We do know this: God didn't create evil. He is good all the time and it is our sin that separates us from Him.
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how do you know this?

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Because evil does not exist as a substantive thing. Just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is the absence of good. God created all things, but our separation from Him is what results in evil.

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this does not answer the question.

[txag007]

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So if you're a sinner that has never heard of Jesus and therefore haven't rejected him, you're ok?

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What happens to those who have never heard of Jesus is another great question of which I am not going to pretend to know the answer. Jesus said, "No man shall come to the Father except through me." This is why Christians are spreading the Word of God to unreached people groups.

[txag007]

I'm sorry. I thought I did. I answered the question about how we know that God did not create evil. Was your question about how we know that it is our sin that separates us from God?

[Jeff V]

It also says in The Bible that God will give everyone a chance to know Him befor they die.

[Jeff V]

2a My answer. If God is truly a loving God who wants the best for his creations how can his motive be questioned?

He wants a relationship w/ us, but He gave us free will so when we seek and find Him we can show Him love, which is what He desires of us. Unfortunately with free will comes the chance that we will reject Him based on our mis-understanding, disbeliefs, etc.


God is also a gentleman who won't force Himself on us. As for allowing suffering- He NEVER allows pain without purpose. He sent His only son to take on the suffering of the whole world, knowing Jesus would be condemned by the very people he was sent to save. I think God suffered all the pain we could ever suffer watching this happen to His only begotten son.


Besides how can we in our finite little minds comprehend the holiness of our almighty Creator?
Jeff

[txag007]

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It also says in The Bible that God will give everyone a chance to know Him befor they die.

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Where does the Bible say this? It says that the Gospel will reach all nations before Christ returns, but where does it say all will have a chance to know Him before they die?

[Timer]

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2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

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God likes to watch porn.

[Jeff V]

Romans 1:19-20

[beekeeper]

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1) Christ died only in penance for the sins of those who accept Him, correct? Meaning, those who choose consciously not to accept the Bible are still accountable for their own sins in the eyes of God?

2) Why wasn't it within God's power to create humans to be totally free of sin in the first place?

[/ QUOTE ]


If you're not a Christian, then you definitely need to read Nietzche's Geneology of Morals. According to his explication, institutionalized monotheism, beginning with Judaism and graduating to Christianity, is a human construct with the intent of shifting power from the mighty to the meak by mythologizing suffering and impotence and realligning our value system. (Kind of ironic isn't it that now, at least in my country (the US), Christians are the "mighty" who see imposing their will on others as "good".

I think your post is meant to challenge Christianity, but it presupposes the truth of that which it challenges--namely that non-Christians can be sinners (sin is a religious construct used to modify behavior) and that there is an all powerful god. If you truly don't ascribe to Christian doctrine, then (1) you are only accountable to whatever moral principles you adopt for yourself, and not a system of values created by organized religion for their own purposes, and (2) you weren't created, therefore you are responsible for whatever you are.

But if you want to challenge Christian tenets presupposing the legitimacy of their assumptions, then you ought to read Milton because a lot of those who call themselves Christians base most of their assumptions about God, Heaven, Hell and free will on Milton's pamphlets and book, Paradise Lost.

In his work Milton explains that god already created a perfect race, called angels--so perfect in fact that they decided they were "godly" enough to challenge god (led, of course, by Lucifer). So god tried again and created humans to be fallible so that he could give to humans his most devine gift: grace. God's omnipotence is expressed not in his ability to save human's from themselves, but in his ability to create the conditions that lead to our fall. The angel Michael explains free will to Adam this way, "Our voluntary love He requires." In otherwords, as humans we are free to choose to love god, and by doing so we demonstrate our desire for grace. We have a choice, but only by choosing to love god do we have any chance of being saved.

[Timer]

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Because evil does not exist as a substantive thing. Just as darkness is the absence of light and cold is the absence of heat, evil is the absence of good. God created all things, but our separation from Him is what results in evil.

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I'm not buying the part in bold print.

[jakethebake]

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I'm sorry. I thought I did. I answered the question about how we know that God did not create evil. Was your question about how we know that it is our sin that separates us from God?

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The question was how do you know? It was not what do you know?

[txag007]

Fair enough. I wouldn't have phrased it the way you did, but the passage you referenced from Romans basically says that all men are without excuse because whether or not they know His name, His nature is revealed.

For those interested, here it is:
Romans 1:18-20
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

[David Sklansky]

"Fair enough. I wouldn't have phrased it the way you did, but the passage you referenced from Romans basically says that all men are without excuse because whether or not they know His name, His nature is revealed.

For those interested, here it is:
Romans 1:18-20
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

So Catholics are morons for thinking otherwise? Or perhaps even worse than that?

[txag007]

I'm not sure to what you are referring. While the word "moron" seems a little strong, I would have a serious issue if a belief they held directly contradicted scripture. Maybe BluffThis! can chime in here and clear things up.

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We have a choice, but only by choosing to love god do we have any chance of being saved.

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Accept Jesus and be saved. I ask: saved for what and from what?


If god created everytjhing, what is he saving us from? And if we are just a creation of god's (a toy as it were), what value is there in saving us, he could just create more toys and why does the toy care if it exists as a toy for eternity?
(good post, by the way)

[beekeeper]

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Accept Jesus and be saved. I ask: saved for what and from what?


If god created everytjhing, what is he saving us from? And if we are just a creation of god's (a toy as it were), what value is there in saving us, he could just create more toys and why does the toy care if it exists as a toy for eternity?
(good post, by the way)

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Well, I think that's a question I struggled with when I was in college. But the fallacy is that if a person has these questions, he or she is really struggling with the issue of whether he believes in a creator at all. That's got to be resolved first because, if the answer is no, then the rest is irrelevant.

The whole question of our free will is tied to a creator's omnipotence and omniscience. But for nonbelievers this question does not disappear, it is just refigured as a question of personal responsibility.

I think your question gets to the heart of it: what are we being saved from? The answer would seem to be, from our own acts. I don't see how believing in a creator leads to a better morality. Those who don't believe will either hold themselves accountable to some set of principles or not, and those who do believe will either hold themselves accountable to their religious principles or not. It seems pretty clear from the empirical examples of our times that mere belief in a creator does not lead to moral acts and choices. I'm one who believes that morality is separate from religion, therefore one can act morally without suscribing to a belief system, and that simply belonging to a religion doesn't make one moral.

Your question makes me think you would really enjoy reading Milton if you haven't already because throughout his career he tried to respond to similar questions from his contemporaries. I think this whole thread reflects questions of Milton's day, especially the issue of whether humans as a creation are just toys. I also think these questions may be more appropriately directed to followers of Judaism than to Christians, since Judaism wonders more about the nature and acts of the creator and Christianity focuses more on the nature and acts of Christ.