Added slowplaying to my arsenal today

After I do it in tourney, it just freezes everyone up on subsequent hands.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB (t1150)
UTG (t1300)
UTG+1 (t925)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t925)
MP2 (t1000)
MP3 (t895)
CO (t925)
Hero (t970)
SB (t910)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls t15, UTG+2 calls t15, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, CO calls t15, Hero calls t15, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t90) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, CO checks, Hero checks.

River: (t90) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets t75</font>, UTG+2 folds, CO folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t275</font>, SB folds, BB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t475</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t955 (All-In)</font>, UTG+1 calls t435 (All-In).

Final Pot: t1955

[axeshigh]

You got really lucky to get any action.

[unreal_nh]

dear god i wouldnt check that flop or turn

[lastchance]

This slowplay SUCKS. Bet the goddamn turn. And the reason I check flop is because I don't think my hand is good against that field on that board.

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dear god i wouldnt check that flop or turn

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i just did the same with nut flush. this is a great weapon to take more chips

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This slowplay SUCKS. Bet the goddamn turn. And the reason I check flop is because I don't think my hand is good against that field on that board.

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nope. it works great. i get more chips this way. appear weak when u r strong (sun tzu?)

[axeshigh]

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This slowplay SUCKS. Bet the goddamn turn. And the reason I check flop is because I don't think my hand is good against that field on that board.

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nope. it works great. i get more chips this way. appear weak when u r strong (sun tzu?)

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You know nothing about Sun Tzu and Sun Tzu knows nothing about poker.

[applejuicekid]

nice catch?

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nice catch?

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he had A7

[viennagreen]

every new player plays this way. weak when strong, strong when weak.

pair of aces with a jack kicker is not strong enough to slow play. I am glad it worked out for u but it was lucky. Remember you did improve on the flop, turn, and river. Not hard to win a hand when that happens.

[applejuicekid]

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nice catch?

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he had A7

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That's not what I meant. If you don't catch runner runner full boat you are not making as many chips.

[jeffraider]

I'm a little shocked you're playing the $55s+.

[bawcerelli]

Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

[bawcerelli]

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

[Freudian]

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This slowplay SUCKS. Bet the goddamn turn. And the reason I check flop is because I don't think my hand is good against that field on that board.

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nope. it works great. i get more chips this way. appear weak when u r strong (sun tzu?)

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You know nothing about Sun Tzu and Sun Tzu knows nothing about poker.

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nh sir

[adanthar]

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this is a great weapon to take more chips

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Yeah, I just can't think from whom.

I agree. Make drawing and second best hands pay on the flop and turn. When people play A7 from early position they will probably pay You off anyway.

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

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yeah, reading the 1,000,000,000 posts saying to raise everytime one of their cards hits is so much more exciting. no wonder so many aren't winning as much as they can - their actions are easy to read. i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc., but i netted more than if i had raised at predicabe times. no one had any idea what i had before the river. none of my actions provided any hint. yes, this deviates from TOP and pot odds (though HOH says to mix things up sometimes) but the gain from being hard to read is +ev.

[Freudian]

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

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yeah, reading the 1,000,000,000 posts saying to raise everytime one of their cards hits is so much more exciting. no wonder so many aren't winning as much as they can - their actions are easy to read. i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc., but i netted more than if i had raised at predicabe times. no one had any idea what i had before the river. none of my actions provided any hint. yes, this deviates from TOP and pot odds (though HOH says to mix things up sometimes) but the gain from being hard to read is +ev.

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How on earth do you equate not betting with the best hand and protecting your hand with being hard to read?

The game is about accumulating chips, not looking cute.

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

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yeah, reading the 1,000,000,000 posts saying to raise everytime one of their cards hits is so much more exciting. no wonder so many aren't winning as much as they can - their actions are easy to read. i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc., but i netted more than if i had raised at predicabe times. no one had any idea what i had before the river. none of my actions provided any hint. yes, this deviates from TOP and pot odds (though HOH says to mix things up sometimes) but the gain from being hard to read is +ev.

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How on earth do you equate not betting with the best hand and protecting your hand with being hard to read?

The game is about accumulating chips, not looking cute.

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one session is many hands. don't sacrifice the big picture for one hand.

[Freudian]

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, reading the 1,000,000,000 posts saying to raise everytime one of their cards hits is so much more exciting. no wonder so many aren't winning as much as they can - their actions are easy to read. i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc., but i netted more than if i had raised at predicabe times. no one had any idea what i had before the river. none of my actions provided any hint. yes, this deviates from TOP and pot odds (though HOH says to mix things up sometimes) but the gain from being hard to read is +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

How on earth do you equate not betting with the best hand and protecting your hand with being hard to read?

The game is about accumulating chips, not looking cute.

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one session is many hands. don't sacrifice the big picture for one hand.

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So you repeat your donk plays over and over again. I fail to see how it helps your case here.

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

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yeah, reading the 1,000,000,000 posts saying to raise everytime one of their cards hits is so much more exciting. no wonder so many aren't winning as much as they can - their actions are easy to read. i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc., but i netted more than if i had raised at predicabe times. no one had any idea what i had before the river. none of my actions provided any hint. yes, this deviates from TOP and pot odds (though HOH says to mix things up sometimes) but the gain from being hard to read is +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

How on earth do you equate not betting with the best hand and protecting your hand with being hard to read?

The game is about accumulating chips, not looking cute.

[/ QUOTE ]

one session is many hands. don't sacrifice the big picture for one hand.

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So you repeat your donk plays over and over again. I fail to see how it helps your case here.

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i can't be read before the river.

[Freudian]

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

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yeah, reading the 1,000,000,000 posts saying to raise everytime one of their cards hits is so much more exciting. no wonder so many aren't winning as much as they can - their actions are easy to read. i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc., but i netted more than if i had raised at predicabe times. no one had any idea what i had before the river. none of my actions provided any hint. yes, this deviates from TOP and pot odds (though HOH says to mix things up sometimes) but the gain from being hard to read is +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

How on earth do you equate not betting with the best hand and protecting your hand with being hard to read?

The game is about accumulating chips, not looking cute.

[/ QUOTE ]

one session is many hands. don't sacrifice the big picture for one hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you repeat your donk plays over and over again. I fail to see how it helps your case here.

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i can't be read before the river.

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No, but with two flushdraws out there you can be outdrawn before the river.

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

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yeah, reading the 1,000,000,000 posts saying to raise everytime one of their cards hits is so much more exciting. no wonder so many aren't winning as much as they can - their actions are easy to read. i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc., but i netted more than if i had raised at predicabe times. no one had any idea what i had before the river. none of my actions provided any hint. yes, this deviates from TOP and pot odds (though HOH says to mix things up sometimes) but the gain from being hard to read is +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

How on earth do you equate not betting with the best hand and protecting your hand with being hard to read?

The game is about accumulating chips, not looking cute.

[/ QUOTE ]

one session is many hands. don't sacrifice the big picture for one hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you repeat your donk plays over and over again. I fail to see how it helps your case here.

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i can't be read before the river.

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No, but with two flushdraws out there you can be outdrawn before the river.

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yup, that's a risk

[applejuicekid]

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Reged: 08/03/05
Posts: 368

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this is arguably the most unfriendly forum on the internet

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nah we just get bored of dumb posts. Stick around for a while and you will get bored with them too. Besides the hand you posted wasn't really that interesting. you should be glad others here pointed out the way you misplayed it.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, reading the 1,000,000,000 posts saying to raise everytime one of their cards hits is so much more exciting. no wonder so many aren't winning as much as they can - their actions are easy to read. i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc., but i netted more than if i had raised at predicabe times. no one had any idea what i had before the river. none of my actions provided any hint. yes, this deviates from TOP and pot odds (though HOH says to mix things up sometimes) but the gain from being hard to read is +ev.

[/ QUOTE ]

How on earth do you equate not betting with the best hand and protecting your hand with being hard to read?

The game is about accumulating chips, not looking cute.

[/ QUOTE ]

one session is many hands. don't sacrifice the big picture for one hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you repeat your donk plays over and over again. I fail to see how it helps your case here.

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i can't be read before the river.

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No, but with two flushdraws out there you can be outdrawn before the river.

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yup, that's a risk

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Yes, so is not maximizing your EV. But the gimmick of not being "readable" on the river may be worth it.

[adanthar]

no, seriously, I slowplay more than 95% of the forum and probably you and you played this hand horribly

for starters, it requires &lt; 5 people in the hand with you

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no, seriously, I slowplay more than 95% of the forum and probably you and you played this hand horribly

for starters, it requires &lt; 5 people in the hand with you

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no it doesn't. just requires pot not be big.

[45suited]

Don't know the buy-in you were playing, but at the lower buy-ins, you might have been able to extract chips by betting the turn from the following hands:

1) club flush draw
2) heart flush draw
3) a K
4) TJ
5) JQ
6) ace, weak kicker

Not to say that they would be correct to call, but that's not the point. You would have gotten some value from your hand.

The thing that you're overlooking is that you failed to extract value or protect your hand on the turn AND that the donk who played A7 from EP at a 10 handed table would have paid you off on the turn anyway.

So... your slowplay really accomplished nothing other than to allow several potential draws to catch up to you. Moreover, if a heart or club came on the river, you likely wouldn't have stacked the A7 and 'may' have even lost the hand yourself.

[jeffraider]

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no, seriously, I slowplay more than 95% of the forum and probably you and you played this hand horribly

for starters, it requires &lt; 5 people in the hand with you

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no it doesn't. just requires pot not be big.

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You seem to have a clear handle on things.


lol

[Back In Black]

Whatever you do, don't read Theory of Poker and please IM me your screen name.

[Elektrik]

From a previous post of mine. Let's vainly hope it makes some impact here?

Get Used to Being Wrong

As said before, you’re going to make a lot of mistakes – everyone does. What determines whether you’re going to be a great player or not usually is based on your reaction to when someone says you’re wrong. Do you brush it off and ignore it? Do you fight back with a blind fury of defenses? Or do you actively take in what they say, consider it, and figure out why one of you is not correct? One of those is going to help you learn, the others will keep your right where you are.

I think the basic problem is that your hand isn't that strong against 5 players drawing. If you hadn't hit your full house on the river you couldn't be sure You had the best hand. Another issue is that flushdrawers won't pay you when they don't hit on the river, it will be too late to get paid.
That's why you have to get paid while you're ahead and someone is willing to pay you.
Let me ask a question: If a random card other than the jack had hit on the river, would you still have claimed your price for trip A's ? What if a 7 had hit ? A club ? Most of the times the J won't come around on the river...

[Hendricks433]

Slowplaying did nothing for you here. Your not gonna get paid by flush draws unless they hit you and have you beat. You hit one of the 3 jacks left for a full house. How often is that Jack gonna hit to fill your boat? Dont be stupid and get FPS just protect your hand and get chips. You dont have to be very tricky in the $22's.

I thought this whole thread was a joke, but the guy has almost 400 posts on his name. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

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every new player plays this way. weak when strong, strong when weak.

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I try to do the opposite every now and then: bet out with trips and other 'monsters' on the flop. The sad thing is that bad players (at $22's) will actually fold when you show strength on a paired flop, and they'll believe your slowplay, too. /images/graemlins/mad.gif

[Newt_Buggs]

This thread is funny

[viennagreen]

in this cash game instance--- did you ALWAYS call bets all the way to the river, then raise or fold--- or did you just do it when you flopped a big hand or a great draw?

i assure you that the only way someone wouldn't be able to get a read on you is if you played like a calling station all the time.

the only time you would be "unreadable" and profitable over the course of many sessions is at very passive tables--- from which you would most likely extract more chips by making them pay to see the next cards.

Ok, i've read your responses. Some were very good and thought out. Some were bad and from the usual teenage crowd who respond to every post with words such as "stupid" and make personal attacks.

I think there are two schools of thought here. One group is looking at the immediate hand. Getting paid now. That's fine. Nothing wrong wih it. The other group - which is just me I guess - is taking a more macro view and seeing one hand as part of a bigger session. I prefer to sometimes lose the battle but win the war (u know what i mean). Since I have started doing this, I have frozen the tables and taken control. Yes there is a problem with doing this on online poker since some don't pay attention, and if I notice that, then I abandon it.

p.s. If this was on the bubble, I'd have bet before the river.

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I think the basic problem is that your hand isn't that strong against 5 players drawing. If you hadn't hit your full house on the river you couldn't be sure You had the best hand. Another issue is that flushdrawers won't pay you when they don't hit on the river, it will be too late to get paid.
That's why you have to get paid while you're ahead and someone is willing to pay you.
Let me ask a question: If a random card other than the jack had hit on the river, would you still have claimed your price for trip A's ? What if a 7 had hit ? A club ? Most of the times the J won't come around on the river...

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That's a good point. My theory is that with 5 guys, someone is going to see something they like. But I see your point.

Btw, there were two flush draws. So 50/50 shot I was gonna lose. Yeah if I bet enough to give bad pot odds, in theory I win even when I lose. But you know they are gonna call. And if I bet too much, no one calls and I make nothing (except for the tiny pot there now). Now, here's where it gets tricky: a 3rd suit does come. So, I have paid for turn bet and now I have to consider river bet - whereas if had never bet on turn, my stack is somewhat bigger. I know, this all goes against convention because turn bet is supposed to drive out others - but we both know often it doesnt (and I'm facing 50/50 here). And I assume Sklansky says that the math dictates I bet on turn - but poker is more than math; it's image and setting things up for future hands.

if you're constantly seen "slowplaying" hands like this, don't you find it takes away some credibility from your bluffs?

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if you're constantly seen "slowplaying" hands like this, don't you find it takes away some credibility from your bluffs?

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yes

[downtown]

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Don't know the buy-in you were playing, but at the lower buy-ins, you might have been able to extract chips by betting the turn from the following hands:

1) club flush draw
2) heart flush draw
3) a K
4) TJ
5) JQ
6) ace, weak kicker

Not to say that they would be correct to call, but that's not the point. You would have gotten some value from your hand.

The thing that you're overlooking is that you failed to extract value or protect your hand on the turn AND that the donk who played A7 from EP at a 10 handed table would have paid you off on the turn anyway.

So... your slowplay really accomplished nothing other than to allow several potential draws to catch up to you. Moreover, if a heart or club came on the river, you likely wouldn't have stacked the A7 and 'may' have even lost the hand yourself.

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Winner. Listen to what 45Suited wrote and don't slowplay in this spot.

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I'm a little shocked you're playing the $55s+.

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I was initially thinking of moving up to the $55s at the end of the month, but this post has motivated me and now I am thinking hmmm, maybe tonight?

[playtitleist]

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a more macro view and seeing one hand as part of a bigger session.

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Okay, I'll bite.

The subject of your thread is "Added slowplaying to my arsenal today". Have you played a meaningful number of SNGs today, say 2500, to offer backing to your stance?

You are getting a lot of pushback from the teenage crowd, because you made a very beatable play, posted it, then quoted Sun Tzu to back your macro level thinking. Next time, I would suggest simply posting the hand, asking for feedback, and countering with your thoughts. We all learn more that way.

Peace out.

[Nicholasp27]

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i was at a cash game, and i never raised once before river. yeah it cost some when someone hit a straight, etc

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so what you are saying is that you are ok with giving infinite odds to your opps...

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Ok, i've read your responses. Some were very good and thought out. Some were bad and from the usual teenage crowd who respond to every post with words such as "stupid" and make personal attacks.

I think there are two schools of thought here. One group is looking at the immediate hand. Getting paid now. That's fine. Nothing wrong wih it. The other group - which is just me I guess - is taking a more macro view and seeing one hand as part of a bigger session. I prefer to sometimes lose the battle but win the war (u know what i mean). Since I have started doing this, I have frozen the tables and taken control. Yes there is a problem with doing this on online poker since some don't pay attention, and if I notice that, then I abandon it.

p.s. If this was on the bubble, I'd have bet before the river.

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Aren't you ignoring like all the knowledge in every 2+2 poker book ever written? And this whole forum? And everything else? To me this sounds like examples in Small Stakes Hold'em, that some people will not bet their strong hands, because someone will draw out on them anyway, or not bet their strong draws, to see the river cheaply...

[Nicholasp27]

a) that donk was gonna pay you off with a7 regardless of when you bet
b) you lost out on chips you woulda gotten by making flush draws pay to chase (and they woulda paid, oh yes)
c) there are 9 clubs for a flush drawer and 8 hearts for heart drawer (you have a heart), so they have, at most, 17 outs, which is 36%, so not 50/50 like you keep mentioning
d) read TOP...anytime you make villian do something he would not have done with face up cards, you gain...so betting enough to not give them odds for flush draw will gain you money
e) look up 'value bet'
f) in this case, if 7 instead of j comes on river, then you go broke...
g) you will NOT gain enough from 'image' to offset what you lose giving people infinite odds
h) poker is math...if u do something to change your image, all you do is change the value of that variable in the equation...it's still math
i) this forum is not unfriendly...but it also gets frustrated at people who post incorrect things and then refuse to admit that they were wrong and refuse to budge on an incorrect position...learn from what everyone is saying...don't just sit here and say 'u all raise too much and lose money...i'm right, you're wrong' or you will find it unfriendly, as you would with that attitude on any internet forum
j) re: your 'art of war' quote...u didn't follow it, as you were not strong when you acted weak...you were very vulnerable until the river, at which point you acted strongly, which you were...
k) this hand would not freeze out anybody decent, nor would anybody decent think you are slowplaying here...they'll think you are weak until you have the nuts and then you bet...cause that's what you did...u checked like you were scared until you had a boat...if u had boated on the flop and then checked it till the reraise, that would be different


basically, with your strategy, only donks and people who have you beat will pay...so you will lose your stack when someone else slowplays against you or hits their hidden runner runner...they will not lose their stack to you unless they are a donk...and oh, btw, donks don't pay attention to what happens hand to hand, so you won't even gain from your 'macro strategy' against the only people that you can beat with this...so bet for value, bluff optimally and don't give your opps infinite odds...

[Freudian]

But you are forgetting that his opponents will be so mezmerized by his oh-so-advanced no betting strategy that they will be unable to do anything but give him all their chips in future hands.

And everyone lived happily ever after.

[illegit]

Don't you need a really good hand to slow play? I don't think top-pair-decent kicker with flush + straight draws possible qualifies as strong enough in a multi-way pot for a slowplay, in fact it's a quite vulnerable holding... this looks more like passive/overly-cautious play to me i.e. wait til you have the near-nuts THEN bet. As others rightfully point out, why not get $ in the pot for when you do hit these beautiful turn and river cards? You can't get $ out of the draws AFTER you gave them free cards and they miss.

And whatever meta-game advantages you imagine there might be for playing the hand this way for a STT are sheer figments of your imagination, i assure you. You have frozen nothing. No one cares that you checked your top pair. And they shouldn't.

[cha59]

Wake up man. You have some of the brightest poker minds that post on this forum trying to help you and you dismiss all their advice like you already know everything.

At first I thought you were yanking people's chains but its starting to look like you actually think you played this hand well.

If you already know it all, why bother reading the stuff in this forum at all?

[ilya]

I think you played the river beautifully.

[illegit]

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I think you played the river beautifully.

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Are you employing the "If you don't have anything nice to say, make up something nice to say" policy?

[zambonidrivr]

Best post of the day. Thanks for the laugh.

[cha59]

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I think you played the river beautifully.

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Are you employing the "If you don't have anything nice to say, make up something nice to say" policy?

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lol

[kyro]

Wow. This hand was played uglily. Yes, it's a word, look it up. Bet the friggin flop. Bet the friggin turn. I just vomited on my cat and she is not happy. Thanks a lot.

#1. Change your Avatar, that is just nasty.
#2. You can keep argueing how wrong everyone is and how right you are. No one cares that you missplay this single hand...its the theory behind. We can not go on telling people that it is okay to do things like this when IT IS NOT!!! People on this forum dont just "let things go." If its wrong they will TELL YOU!
#3. Slowplaying doesn't mean always checking...
#4. Do not play the 55's until you learn how to slow play. Make it a goal. I truely believe that you could learn how to properly slowplay in correct situations, so do it.

And finally...

#5. You are a f***ing jackass. Your thread title says "Added slowplaying to my arsenal today." Let me repeat this...You are a f***ing jackass. Shut the f*** up and listen to these people. YOU JUST ADDED SLOWPLAYING IN ONE DAY...what the hell does that even mean? Did you drink a beer this morning and say to yourself...okay its time for me to be good at slowplaying?

What the hell is that?

[ilya]

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I think you played the river beautifully.

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Are you employing the "If you don't have anything nice to say, make up something nice to say" policy?

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Your hair looks beautiful today.