Do you change your play up at all if you're on a vicious cold streak?

[KSOT]

Sorry to waste your time with this story, but I've just got to vent somewhere... Tonight was my worst night of poker ever.

I've been going to Foxwoods rather frequently for the past few months and have been crushing the 2/4 games every single time, so tonight I stepped it up to 4/8 and I could NOT catch ANYTHING playable all night long. I didn't think it was possible to see hundreds of hands without ever seeing anything better than A9s or pocket 8s, and jeeze... what an awful time for it to happen. Although I was probably a little intimidated by the bet sizes and might have played slightly tighter than usual, I don't think I was outplayed or run over in the least. In fact, the players seemed to be just as bad as the average 2/4ers. All of them saw more than half of the flops, it was almost never raised pre-flop and I don't think I saw one check-raise the whole time.

Eventually I got really frustrated and played a few mediocre hands from early position, but for the most part I think I stayed level-headed and consistent. But I wonder, wouldn't it be better for me to at least see a few extra flops once in a while than wait for good cards that seem like they'll never come? I blew $240 folding every hand for 5 hours. I won a single pot the whole damn time and I even had to split it with someone else. I think I would've felt a lot better about the session had I gone out betting instead of folding. I sensed everyone at the table thought I was a weak-tight sissy, but it was really 74o, 95o, 83o for hours on end >_<

Do you change your play up when the cards run frozen? Do you quit when you start to notice it happening? I was going to, but I kept telling myself that the table was soft and my rush was coming.

[JacksonTens]

you lost 30BB... 30BB? /images/graemlins/grin.gif
That is hardly anything, that won't even [shouldn't] dent your roll at all.

In answer to your question. Should you start playing junk to try and win? Well if your just playing junk to see a flop the answer is easy. No. If you've got junk but your against the right players, in a position to make a play for a pot. Yes. That is what separates the great from the good. Although these kinds of situations come up rarely.. SO the answer to your question remains as stated earlier.

JT /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Dagger78]

One night is only one night, bad night (and horrible nights) will happen.

To put it in perspective, recently I ran dead even (down 200BB at one point) over 30k hands. Considering you play 30-35 hands an hour at a live table, you can see how long that is. Stay focused, play right, you'll get the money in "the long run". Until this stretch I didn't know what that meant.

[chesspain]

Let's recap:

1) You claim to "crush" the Foxwoods 2/4 every time you've played.

2) You move up to 4/8, and after losing just 30BB you claim it was your "worst night of poker ever."

3) You claim to have been card-dead but wonder if you would have felt better about losing had you played more hands and lost even more money(!?)

4) You worried about whether the other players thought that you were a weak-tight sissy.


I hate to sound harsh, but you have A LOT more to learn about poker, especially in regards to variance, tilt, and playing with scared money. I would suggest that you read (or reread) SSHE as well as Psychology of the Poker Mind.

[KSOT]

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Let's recap:

1) You claim to "crush" the Foxwoods 2/4 every time you've played.

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Are you implying that I'm lying? I'm not, and I don't see why I would. It wasn't every SINGLE time, I lost a few times when I first started playing. But I learned a lot since then and had walked away a winner about 8 times in a row up 'till tonight.

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2) You move up to 4/8, and after losing just 30BB you claim it was your "worst night of poker ever."

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Well, it was my first time at a limit that high and I've never lost anywhere near $240 in one night, so yes... it absolutely WAS my worst night of poker ever. I don't see what's wrong with that statement. I don't mean it was the worst I ever played, I mean it was the worst results I ever had (in other words, most money lost).

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3) You claim to have been card-dead but wonder if you would have felt better about losing had you played more hands and lost even more money(!?)

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Not lost even more money... lost the same amount of money (I only had the $240 with me), but by actually playing instead of waiting hopelessly. I know that concept is fundamentally wrong. I just wanted to see if anyone does it.

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4) You worried about whether the other players thought that you were a weak-tight sissy.

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I don't worry about it for the sake of winning or losing, I just don't enjoy being seen as a newb. No big deal really... just part of my venting.

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I hate to sound harsh, but you have A LOT more to learn about poker, especially in regards to variance, tilt, and playing with scared money. I would suggest that you read (or reread) SSHE as well as Psychology of the Poker Mind.

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Not harsh at all... I'm still at the microlimit level online and I know I have a lot to learn. I need to read HEFAP before I reread SSHE, though I feel like I gain practically nothing from these books. All of the information presented seems relatively obvious to me, sadly... I s'pose I should look into the second book you recommended, regardless.

Thanks to all of you for your comments.

[jat850]

I just went through a $200 loss night. (11 hrs. of play at 2/4 live where I couldn't catch fish in a trout pond.) It IS very emotionally frustrating. But when I read chesspain's post and this DEFENSIVE response, I see someone who asked for feedback and then would not listen to any of it.

I strongly urge you to read this post tomorrow or even later and try to take this point of view: Don't try to look for (and defend against) what other posters say that is wrong (and lots will be). Instead, look for the 1-3 things they say that MIGHT be correct. After all you did ask for feedback and look what you did to that feedback. Wow. Dial down the testasterone and the ego. Read, meditate, maybe even medicate and look for what is RIGHT about the feedback. The Zen expression is - when the student is ready the teacher will appear. KSOT - this post SCREAMS that you are not really ready to be a student.

[callmedonnie]

First of all, I agree with chesspain's analysis that you have a lot to learn regarding tilt, and playing weak at a higher limit.

I am not saying you don't know what you are doing and that you can't beat that game. I trust your perception of the weakness of the 4/8 game there.

Regarding your initial question, should you change your play when you are losing? The answer is no, providing you are playing well. If you are playing poorly, you should either change or stop playing.

It sounds dumb, but it is true. For the most part, if you play winning poker you should only change style when you mix it up your play for the sake of confusing good opponents.

[JDErickson]

After going through quite a few downswings and currently am enduring my worst -350 BB swing over 25k hands I can see where you are coming from. Its hard not to play differently (scared, tilty, etc)

What I try to do is when I start palying differently than I normally would I stop and take a day or two off. When you go back concentrate hard on playing correctly. If you hit another bad swing stop and take a nother couple days off.

"Although I was probably a little intimidated by the bet sizes and might have played slightly tighter than usual, I don't think I was outplayed or run over in the least."
"Eventually I got really frustrated and played a few mediocre hands from early position, but for the most part I think I stayed level-headed and consistent."

Both these statements are contradictory to themselves.

"But I wonder, wouldn't it be better for me to at least see a few extra flops once in a while than wait for good cards that seem like they'll never come?"

There's a reason that the starting hands for holdem don't change every few months. It's because this isn't true. If you have good starting hole cards, it is more likely that you will hit the flop better. Can you justify seeing more flops than you would otherwise? If so, tell us you reasoning for thinking that this is true. Once you verbalize it here, you will have the answer staring you in the face.

"I think I would've felt a lot better about the session had I gone out betting instead of folding. I sensed everyone at the table thought I was a weak-tight sissy"

This may or may not be the sign of a deeper problem. It appears that the reason you would have rather been betting than folding is that you were looking to impress the other players at the table. Be satisfied while folding bad hands. If the bad run is getting to you (which it does for many players), leave the table, or go for a walk.

"my rush was coming."

Rushes aren't sessional. They don't happen often enough for you to expect them to occur regularly. In fact, rushes don't exist at all. Can you explain why they do?

"had walked away a winner about 8 times in a row"

It is very important to realize that sessional wins are NOT relevant. Life is one long session, and whether you are winning or losing depends on where you take the snapshot of your results. Sessional wins are therefore fictional. I have one friend that tracks his results according to sessional wins. If he plays four 3-hour sessions in one week where he wins 5BB each, and then plays two 12-hour sessions in which he loses 15BB each, he counts this as being a solid winning player because he has had 4 wins and 2 losses. He is actually losing money at a rate of -0.25BB/hr.

"and I've never lost anywhere near $240 in one night"

Consider keeping track of your wins/losses in terms of bets, not $$. I played in one game a few months ago where I lost $60, and another a couple nights ago where I lost $300. Which night was a bigger loss? Well, the first game was $0.50-$1 and the second was $10-$20. 60BB is terrible, while 15BB is a typical loss. If you are concerned about the $-value of your loss, it is possible that your BR is not big enough.

"I just don't enjoy being seen as a newb. No big deal really"

I think it is a big deal. Your low self-esteem can easily spiral out of control and force you to go for pots instead of $$. Your goal is not to win pots and play hands. It's not about ego. It's about money. That's it.

1) How big is your bankroll? Because you're measuring a loss here in terms of $ and not BB, which makes me think you're underrolled/scared money.

2) Were you stealing the blinds at all? Even with loose tables you should have the chance to steal at least once an hour. And if you aren't playing very many hands up front, you're likely to get more respect when you do steal. (By the way, I'd say 4/8 live players are a bit worse than 1/2 online players, unless Foxwoods is drastically different. You should be able to beat a 4/8 live game if you understand the concepts in SSHE.)

3) Do something to keep yourself entertained when folding constantly. Try starting non poker conversations. Otherwise you're going to be tempted to play those "pretty" hands that don't quite hit, plus your marginal suiteds like 54s in middle position or A2s in early position.

4) Even with a decent bankroll, I find setting a stoploss for myself is useful playing live games. I've got 350BB for 4/8, but if I lose more than 40 BB in a live session I start doing really stupid things. Figure out where your pain threshold is, as Caro calls it, and quit if you breach it.

5) If you think the concepts in SSHE are "obvious" and you get frustrated rereading the book, you aren't reading it carefully enough. I need to read it 3 more times at least before I understand some of this stuff.

[KSOT]

"I strongly urge you to read this post tomorrow or even later and try to take this point of view: Don't try to look for (and defend against) what other posters say that is wrong (and lots will be). Instead, look for the 1-3 things they say that MIGHT be correct. After all you did ask for feedback and look what you did to that feedback. Wow. Dial down the testasterone and the ego. Read, meditate, maybe even medicate and look for what is RIGHT about the feedback. The Zen expression is - when the student is ready the teacher will appear. KSOT - this post SCREAMS that you are not really ready to be a student."

Yeah, you're right... I was being too defensive. I was just real upset after the rough night. However, I was also mildly put off by his "advice." That is probably because, he didn't say anything of much value, IMO. He listed things I said and then told me I have a lot to learn and that I should read SSHE. That's about the least original/helpful tidbit I've ever read on this site.

"Both these statements are contradictory to themselves."

With the first statement, I meant that although I was probably playing tighter than usual, I don't attribute it to being outplayed by the others. They weren't tricky, hyper-aggressive, or anything liek that. They were just catching the hands I was missing, as evidenced by dozens of showdowns I witnessed. As for the second statement, I don't see how it's contradictory at all, given the qualifier "for the most part."

"If the bad run is getting to you (which it does for many players), leave the table, or go for a walk."

Yeh... that's really what I should have done after the first hour or so. The thing is, we live 3 hours away from the casino and we only had 6 hours to stay there. I felt like I was committed to play.

"it is possible that your BR is not big enough."

Definitely isn't. I had no business playing 4/8, which is why I am extra upset about how it went. I thought it'd be a piece of cake, like my last bazillion casino experiences.

"2) Were you stealing the blinds at all? Even with loose tables you should have the chance to steal at least once an hour."

I wasn't, partly because as you said, I was playing with scared money, but also because I don't recall the opportunity presenting itself much at all. Every single pot I can recall had at least 4 limpers. Not much chance to steal, especially for a stealing rookie like myself.

"And if you aren't playing very many hands up front, you're likely to get more respect when you do steal."

That's what I thought was going to happen when I finally caught something. I figured I'd raise and everyone would put me on aces and fold. So I finally get AQo during my last 15 minutes and put in a raise UTG. How many cold callers were there? Oh... I think maybe 7. *Sigh*

"By the way, I'd say 4/8 live players are a bit worse than 1/2 online players,"

Well I only have one table to go by, but from the looks of things, they are far worse.

Anyway, thanks to you and everyone else for the tips. I do take in the good ones, even if I don't have anything to say in response.