$33: Line check on turn scare card, lvl 2, JJ hand

[downtown]

No reads, batches. Comments on all streets welcome.

NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Sunday, September 18, 22:14:31 EDT 2005
Table Table 12877 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: silkyness ( $525 )
Seat 2: Hero ( $1015 )
Seat 3: flyinJake ( $795 )
Seat 4: mrwrister ( $405 )
Seat 5: MrWildcat ( $3065 )
Seat 8: GordonGecko1 ( $895 )
Seat 9: plumb77 ( $725 )
Seat 10: Deadeye32581 ( $575 )
Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Hero [ Js Jc ]
>You have options at Table 12981 Table!.
MrWildcat folds.
>You have options at Table 11647 Table!.
GordonGecko1 raises [60].
plumb77 folds.
Deadeye32581 folds.
silkyness folds.
Hero calls [60].
flyinJake folds.
mrwrister calls [30].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Qh, Qc, 4c ]
mrwrister checks.
>You have options at Table 11647 Table!.
GordonGecko1 bets [120].
Hero calls [120].
mrwrister folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 2c ]
GordonGecko1 bets [125].
>You have options at Table 11647 Table!.
Hero is all-In [835]

[kyro]

I hate not reraising PF here. I hate not raising the flop here.

Edit: I missed the third person in there. That makes it closer to a call on the flop but I probably still raise. But I've raised PF so things are different.

[downtown]

Bump for morning people. I am skeptical of the line I took here and I appreciate other comments, the harsher the better!

[45suited]

I think that you're ahead... but I like calling the turn because a) you might not be and b) there are more river cards that will likely help you than hurt you.

Not very deep analysis, but I like just calling the turn. Your call will likely be quite scary to him if he does not have a Q. If he is ahead, you have the club draw going for you now, so I'd just call.

Ha, I just re-read the title of your post... I don't really see the 3rd club as a scare card. It's a heads-up pot, I don't see any reason why I wouldn't like a 4th club to come on the river.

[Indiana]

You absolutely have to raise on this flop to find out where you are at. If you don't you will play a guessing game to a large turn bet and u will have wild fluctuations in your play usually coming out behind. I also think u can raise preflop but finding out where u are on the flop is of utmost importance. If you are just called you can begin to put him on a range on hands. Then bet the turn and check behind on river. Of course, if he comes over the top along the way or pops the river into you then you gotta lay it down.

Indy

[45suited]

I just disagree with this completely. I probably 'raise to find out where I'm at' less than almost anybody on this forum. Sometimes calling is just fine, and I think that this is one of those spots.

Raising to find out where you're at can get pretty dicey when it involves crippling you in the process. We've got position on the villain, calling the flop seems fine to me. Let's see what develops on the turn. The turn, I would just call as well.

Keep in mind that the flop may well be scary to the villain as well. Let's not give him too much credit. No need to raise this flop, IMO. Then again, I don't have a problem making a difficult call now and then either. Alot of the chips that I make are made from playing hands from behind and letting people bluff into me.

With position, I like calling the flop here and seeing what develops.

[Indiana]

Perhaps u can escape without raising and I am missing something. Thing is, if you dont raise you really havent put any fear in his heart so you don't know what his large river bet will mean right (because he will bet again)?

Indy

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps u can escape without raising and I am missing something. Thing is, if you dont raise you really havent put any fear in his heart so you don't know what his large river bet will mean right (because he will bet again)?

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't raise to find out where you are. You raise because you probably have the best hand and because you're vulnerable to a number of turn cards. Raising to "find out where you are" in a shallow-stacked game like SNGs is usually a bad idea.

[45suited]

Thing is, there's really not that many turn cards that scare me here. Four kings and four aces. Two of which give me a high flush draw anyway.

[kyro]

8 cards is enough to scare me. It's more than 8 anyways. You can't just ignore the flush draw out there.

[Indiana]

True that when the stacks are rather shallow raising to gain perspective is less important. But what if this guy hit the Q? Don't you wanna know that before u push? If you raise him and he just calls flop and turn and lets u check behind you know he doesnt have it. If he reraises u on the flop or leads into you on turn/river you must lay.

Indy

[Indiana]

Plus, if you have been watching this guy carefully your raise will help u know if he has the Q. By the way, is this guy a bonecrusher or a rock? Did you have time to observe that?

Indy

[kyro]

No, not really. If I have AA here, I am far more likely to just call rather than raise to find out where I am. If he has a Q, I'd like to lose as little as possible, and raising into someone who has me crushed is not the way to do this.

[Indiana]

Perhaps I am wrong. So kyro explain how you would deal with this flop bet of the original raiser. Would you raise the flop and if so by how much?

Thanks,

Indy

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
Plus, if you have been watching this guy carefully your raise will help u know if he has the Q. By the way, is this guy a bonecrusher or a rock? Did you have time to observe that?

Indy

[/ QUOTE ]

It's level 2 and I have not played him before so he is probably a donk. If he has the Q he is gonna stack me, because experience has told me I'm ahead here most (70%??, that's a guess) of the time.

[downtown]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, is this guy a bonecrusher or a rock?

[/ QUOTE ]

P.S. What is a bonecrusher? Sounds awesome!

[AlphaWice]

I just dont understand these recommended lines by the repliers. Are you guys saying you checkcall with JJ the whole way? IMO that is god-awful, but I don't make as much $ as you guys.

I only like preflop. I raise the flop because there are 17 turn scare cards, and any of them falling puts us in that tough spot where we're not sure if our opponent has the best hand or is drawing to it. Your hand is too weak to trap and too strong to fold, so raise.

[johnnybeef]

The way you played it gave you absolutely no information about the strength of your opponents hand, and since you have no reads, you are playing a difficult hand in the dark. Reraise pf to find out what a minraise from this guy means, take a note, life will be peachy. Since you played it passively pf, you really need to follow through on the flop, play for set value, and fold. The turn you need to fold again as unless he is a total jackass (which you dont know without a read) he is strong (we can tell from him betting into you from oop on all 3 streets.) The river brings a good bluffing situation, but I'm not sure how I feel about it cuz i know nothing about him.

[durron597]

Because we have the J/images/graemlins/club.gif I almost always just call down here, and check behind on the river if checked to.