another 6-12 hand

[Schmed]

I have K /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 7 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 2 behind the button. Player in the seat next to me raises,(mp), I call, player one off the button,(lp) calls, button reraises, folded to MP who calls, I call, LP player caps,(he must have felt left out, button calls, mp calls, I call.

Flop

Q /forums/images/icons/club.gif 2 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif 4 /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif

MP bets, I raise, lp folds,(still couldn't figure out what he had), button calls.

Flop

K /forums/images/icons/heart.gif

MP checks, I check, button checks

River

5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif

MP bets, I call, button calls.

I say, "I have a King", and show it, MP says "Kings good" and shows A /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif q /forums/images/icons/diamond.gif . Button shows pocket J's I win......luckily......

Thoughts

Preflop, initially I was thinking I wanted to limp with that hand, I wasn't in great position but it wasn't horrible either, when it was raised the first time I figured I'd make a loose call, when it came around raised again I figure there was plenty of money in there for me to chase but I knew I was behind. Like I said above the odd raise by the guy in between the button made everyone kind of scratch their heads. I couldn't figure that one out at the time. The only rational I could think of was the guy had something like A2s and was hoping for a favorable flop. If he had stayed I would have been worried about him having the diamonds.....little did I know.

Flop

With the guy next to me betting I was raising to get a discount on the turn if my flush didn't hit. I figured I needed that flush to win that fat pot. I figured I was up against a pair of Q's and maybe something like pocket 10's or reallyt a pocket pair less than a Q but greater than 8.

Turn

King hits and no action. I thought I may just have the best hand. I was still worried about the button. That's why I didn't bet. I put him on the pair but he very well could have had AK or something like that.

River

With no betting I thought, 'hey my King might be good', and it was....

I'll probably get a little crap for calling a capped flop preflop but it wasn't like I was calling down 24 at once or anything....it was 6 dollars at a time once it got out of control and there was just too much cash in there not to give it a go.

In hindesight I could have bet for value on the turn but my thinking there really was that there was too much out there to let myself get check raised instead of see the last card for free.

Thankfully I didn't hit my flush..........

[MtSmalls]

I think you dissected the play pretty well yourself. Calling four bets with two suited cards is BAAAAD Juju. What do you do if a King flops and you have no kicker??Fortunately for you, you flopped the second nut draw, and an overcard. Your call here is basically correct, though some would raise for value with that many players in. I think this is a good spot to mix up your play, sometimes raising, sometimes calling. Raising might also clean up some offsuit Aces and other Kings....

However, you now spike the K, giving you second nut draw and top pair. You really HAVE to bet this. In this case you have to either tell the pocket J's that he's no good and he has to pay to hit his two outer. You may also get some good information besides. In what might become the small stakes unofficial slogan, "Worse Hands Will Call"

The 5 is a blank, so you need to call the last bet. I'm glad for you no diamond came on the river.

[Schmed]

I actually did raise the flop. You do bring up a great point. I have been called out by a friend of mine for "always" raising my draws. That really isn't true but I do raise my nut or 2nd nut draws all the time. That being the case I probably do need to start mixing it up when that flop hits.

I know I should have bet the turn but like I said even though I put the button on a high pocket I wasn't sure and he may have just as easily had the AK as he was the one that made it 3 bets. Never having played with him before I really wasn't too sure on if he would raise something like an AKo to 3 bets. I really was wanting my flush to hit because at the time I thought it was the only thing that would win me that pot.

By the way if I'm in with a hand like that and a k hits the flop what I like to do is bet it and see if I get raised. I figure the AK will raise a bet with a K on the flop, especially with that flops texture, pretty much every time. If I get raised there I pretty much tuck my tail and fold or call one more to see the turn and hope my kicker hits. That really is the question with a hand like that. When the K hits the flop what do you do.........answer....think F#$&

[Bob T.]

I thought the story should have gone like this. I have K7 suited. My right hand opponent open raises, facing two bets, and a potential shorthanded pot, I muck, and go get a soda. Your call preflop is horrible.

After that, you hit your three outer, and played the hand well.

[Louie Landale]

Yuuuuck.

Pretty routine fold before the flop. What are you thinking? For one thing, you are way out of position vis-a-vis the better and the rest of the field, and it can easily get capped. This is quite a bit different had UTG raised and you are on the button. BTW, some players just like to cap it. Don't waste time trying to figure out what he has since he has a very wide variety of hands.

Flop: if MP has AQ he's probably going to 3-bet and it will cost you the max to draw to your flush AND you may drive out customers. The only reason's to raise are if there is doubt about the quality of MPs hand (he has no Q, has no A flush draw), and to promote the value of your K (hoping AK or KJ folds behind you).

Turn: so you caught real strong and decide to check. Tsk Tsk Tsk.

River: routinely but well played.

Except the river, you seem to have maximized your disadvantages and minimized your advantages. You lost MEGA EV on this one.

You seem to rationalize too much. Play by the book most of the time and deviate when you have good reasons. The more you know the "book" rules the more you should follow them, NOT the more you can rationalize NOT following them.

- Louie

[JTG51]

Preflop: The call is really terrible. I'd fold for 1 bet in that situation, nevermind 2.

Flop: If I had seen the flop, I would have done the same. You'd love to get an AK behind you out to pick up a few more outs.

Turn: Your hand just greatly improved and you check? I don't get it.

River: Given your turn check, calling is your only choice.

[bad beetz]

Ugh, you gotta dump that before the flop for the exact reasons that happened in the hand. You'll get trapped with top/no kicker and lots of action.

[HDPM]

Just to totally pile on and kick a dead horse, the preflop call was horrendous. Just awful. I hope enough people say this that you will stop. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

[LondonBroil]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
I have K 7 2 behind the button. Player in the seat next to me raises,(mp), I call

[/ QUOTE ]

Before reading any further, I'm going to say your pre-flop call is an abomination. I havent been playing very long though so maybe I'm wrong.

[LondonBroil]

Hey, maybe reading these forums is helping. I was right! Time to tackle the 20-40 tables with my $550 BR.

[Bob T.]

Bad Juju.
Horrrible.
Yuuuuck.
Terrible.
Horrendous.
Really Awful.
Abomination.

I didn't know we knew so many words for didn't like it. This one might set a record.

[Schmed]

I knew that preflop call was going to get me in trouble....I actually thought it was going to get me in trouble at the table that night.......I got lucky...

Rest assured that I usually don't make that kind of call. I wasn't in horrible position yet I did get trapped. Once I was in I figured...ya know...."let's gamble....." /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

I rarely post hands that I kicked ass on....I always post my...well my..questionable .....BadJuju....Horrrible..
..Yuuuuck....Terrible.Horrendous....Really Awful.....
Abomination....plays.......that way I can learn from them...

Thanks to all that responded.......y'all are makin me a player to be contended with......they hate y'all at Harrahs...well they would if they knew ya.... /forums/images/icons/tongue.gif Thanks again.....

[Schmed]

Thanks for the response Louie....I love picking your brain about this game....

Interesting flop comments. I figured I was raising for value on my flush draw. I was also raising for info. I wanted to see what I would get. If I were the guy with the AQd I would have made it 3 bets. He didn't so that made me wonder if he was the one with the pocket pair. I know if I had pocket J's utg I would have bet there. I figured one of them had the strong q and the other was on a pocket pair or maybe AK. Hand reading is not my strongest attribute at my level.

I guess the real question is why is it such a bad check on the turn? I did have one to act behind me and by not betting and him checking I got the information that he didn't have a K. If he did he may have raised me if I bet or even worse he may have just called my K and I wouldn't know that he was sitting there with AK until he called the river bet and showed down. The other thing I was worried about at the time was the initial bettor. He didn't take it to 3 bets on my flop raise so I was worried that he may have the AK and was setting me up for a check raise....I really was worried about either one of my opponents having a K because I knew if they did I was dust. I try to play aggresively and by the book to a large degree but, and it may be a rationalization, I didn't think my K was enough. I really thought I needed my flush. That being the case I figured accepting a free one was my best bet,(I know I was giving a free one). I wasn't getting the button to fold, that was pretty obvious, so I checked. Would you have bet here? What if you were raised by the button? Fold or call?

The poor play of my opponents really helped me out in this hand. If I were the AQ I would have made it 3 bets on the flop and then came out betting on the turn. If I were the J's I would have either reraised me on the flop, (taking a shot at the pot right there), or folded to a raise figuring I was certainly beaten by a high Q.

[Louie Landale]

Consider this analogy: you buy a Lottery ticket. Tomarrow your trusted friend looks at your numbers and tells you that you did not win. It wouldn't do you a bit of good if you knew what the winning numbers were: you lost. Therefore, lisening to the radio station and "gaining information" about the winning numbers doesn't do you any good.

Once you snag your weak-top pair K on the turn, you are pretty much going to show this hand down unless someone makes it two bets to you on the river. Therefore, "gaining information" really doesn't do you any good: if you check and button bets, you will surely call with just your draw and will likely pay him off the river with your K. If he checks, surely you will wish you had bet (it doesn't matter if he'll fold or not).

I guess the issue boils down to this: do you think you are close to a favorite with your weak pair of Kings? I'd say "Yes", you apparently feel "No". For me, that's enough to bet the turn. The other issue is "will I get paid off if I have the best hand" (if you bet the river), again the answer is pretty obviously "yes" since surely ONE of them has a Q.

- Louie