Should i continue with online poker career or return to 9-5 job?

[PokerPaul]

I am lately caught in a bit of a mid-life or something like it crisis.

Here’s my situation. Up until a year and a half ago I had a great job in software industry, getting quite a great salary, for very reasonable working hours and conditions. It was a very niche business segment, so we didn’t get much work, but when we did get client, they would pay very high rates for this specialized knowledge.

I always knew however that the gravy train would end sometime, and last spring it did. Unfortuanately, I got laid off due to work shortage and our company having to cut costs, so they went with more junior consultants (which turned into a very bad move on their behalf, but that’s another story). Anyways, I wasn’t really too depressed about it, cuz I was getting really bored on that job after doing same thing for 8 years, and the office politics were getting ridiculous.

So after a nice negotiated severance package, I decided to take it easy over the course of the following 6 months, play poker fulltime, and spend more time with my young kids and enjoy a couple months off. Needless to say my wife needed some convincing that the poker would continue to pay the bills and allow her the lifestyle she’s accustomed.

The plan was to simply play poker, and take on some occasional clients myself for 2-6 week projects now and then. That worked for the first several months, but since then the clients have dried up (a major technological advancement in my field kind of automated now what I used to have to do manually for clients).

So for the last year straight its been almost playing poker for living exclusively. I love all the positive things that go with playing poker for a living, and I am in no way tired of game yet.

However, I am starting to ask myself more and more what I plan to do with my life over the next several years. As much fun as this currently is, I can’t realistically expect to do this for a living long term and support my family from it.

Not to mention the whole stigma this is creating between our social circles, for me and my wife. Some people think its cool, others think its highly irresponsible, and some think its downright negative. I don’t really care what others outside of my family think, but for my wife she needs to put up with people shaking their heads at it from time to time.

I also get ribbed from some of my own friends who always drop little verbal jabs that, oh you don’t have a job so of course you have time to pick up kids from school…or asking are you still unemployed??.

The truth is I love to play the game, I love to work on my skills, read up on strategies. The other truth is I just can’t seem to want to return to a regular 8-5 job. Its just too tempting to know I can do what I love, and make a good living at it (albeit not as highly paid as previous job). Although I do feel like the longer I stay out of regular workforce, the worse kind of job I’d have to settle for when I do decide to return.

Anyways, I am beating myself up and having sleepless nights lately cuz I can’t decide what I should do. Work a regular job, getting regular paycheques and have wife and social circles happy, but at expense of me not “loving” what I do, but instead just getting through the days. Or play poker, and settle for a little less money and luxuries, but enjoy immense freedom, and more time at home.

The thing is though its tough being a poker player. On a great day or week, you feel on top of the world and get all the positive emotions that go with it. During a bad week, not only can you blow through large amounts of bankroll (which now represent your phone bill, property taxes etc.), but you also start to question yourself and hate that this is what I’ve become.

I am really caught in the middle, and my wife is growing more impatient with this, which is understandable. I’m almost 40 with 2 kids, and while friends and former university class mates are just entering their prime earning years of their careers, and advancing to executive levels, here I am grinding it out at online poker. I gotta give my wife much credit for putting up with this as long as she has, but its getting to point of I really gotta decide which way I want to go in my life, and pursue it whole heartedly.

Any relevant advice appreciated.

[Edge34]

Nobody can tell you what's better, but here's my line of thought.

What's important to you? Is it the steady money (or the amount)? Is it the freedom in your hours? Is it the approval of your "social circles"? Is it personal satisfaction with your career?

Decide what's most important to you at this point in your life, and which career gives you the most benefit. At that point, you may be closer to your decision. Talking it over with the missus wouldn't hurt either.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I’m almost 40 with 2 kids, and while friends and former university class mates are just entering their prime earning years of their careers, and advancing to executive levels, here I am grinding it out at online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look for a job. Play poker in the meantime. Because of poker you can take your time and find one you really like. Then, play poker on the side and have more money than your peers.

[Eder]

Get a part time job in your field close to home...dont worry about the money it pays. Play Poker. win win

[Justin A]

Shouldn't it be obvious?
link (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=1333619&Forum= All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=2500&Main=133 3619&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=1009&daterange =1&newerval=2&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=#Post1333619)

[Alex/Mugaaz]

If you didn't have a family I'd say just continue to play. Since you have one I'd say go for a job and poker on the side, (INSERT CLICHE HERE) - "and it's not even close"

[BillD]

The proper answer when asked your occupation is: I am retired. (just do it with a big smile) Talk about how you played golf Wednesday morning or attended a school play during the day. What a person does for a living is nobody's business, anybody who asks is rude. Asking what someone does for a living is a really asking how much they make. If you don't want to use the retired line, just make up something.

Watch the movie City Slickers. You will find some unexpected answers there.

[PokerPaul]

that was one of my favourite movies.

maybe i should watch it again...lol...although i doubt i'll be joining a cattle drive or running with the bulls in spain as in movie.

[Mark Heide]

PokerPaul,

I've been through this phase and the way I solved it was by showing my family my daily records that I keep. I use a speadsheet to calculate my daily hours playing poker and limits. The nature of gambling ventures is that the results are erratic in the short term and only make sense in the long term.

You have to run your poker business as a BUSINESS! The only way you can accurately assess profits and losses is by keeping records daily.

Lastly, the records will prove to your loved ones that what you are doing is making money, and it will also help you improve your game.

Good Luck

Mark

[mosquito]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I’m almost 40 with 2 kids, and while friends and former university class mates are just entering their prime earning years of their careers, and advancing to executive levels, here I am grinding it out at online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look for a job. Play poker in the meantime. Because of poker you can take your time and find one you really like. Then, play poker on the side and have more money than your peers.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.

[TheArtist]

Tough one Paul. I have a hard time making this decision at 27 and single. I can't imagine how hard the decison will be with a wife and kids.

Gl with your choices.

Richard

[Oilcan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I’m almost 40 with 2 kids, and while friends and former university class mates are just entering their prime earning years of their careers, and advancing to executive levels, here I am grinding it out at online poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look for a job. Play poker in the meantime. Because of poker you can take your time and find one you really like. Then, play poker on the side and have more money than your peers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this.

Don't worry what other people may say/think/question.

Do what you have to, to take care of your family.

You should contact David Ross. He would probably have a great deal of insight on this.

[PokerPaul]

funy u say that...i know david ross and met him personally and we went on a trip to foxwoods together last year.

i havent heard from him in a while though...maybe i'll give him a call..

[jakethebake]

[ QUOTE ]
Shouldn't it be obvious?
link (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=inet&Number=1333619&Forum= All_Forums&Words=&Searchpage=0&Limit=2500&Main=133 3619&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=1009&daterange =1&newerval=2&newertype=y&olderval=&oldertype=&bod yprev=#Post1333619)

[/ QUOTE ]

i thought this was going to be THIS LINK (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=3240518&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1) . /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[autobet]

[ QUOTE ]
Get a part time job

[/ QUOTE ]

This should be a nice compromise

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
while friends and former university class mates are just entering their prime earning years of their careers, and advancing to executive levels

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, they're in high-stress jobs that they hate, working long hours and putting up with all kinds of crap so that they can buy bigger and bigger cars and houses to impress their friends and placate their spouses, and wishing secretly that they could just chuck it all and do something they really love. Count your blessings.

[Clarkmeister]

if you have to ask...

[billyjex]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
while friends and former university class mates are just entering their prime earning years of their careers, and advancing to executive levels

[/ QUOTE ]

In other words, they're in high-stress jobs that they hate, working long hours and putting up with all kinds of crap so that they can buy bigger and bigger cars and houses to impress their friends and placate their spouses, and wishing secretly that they could just chuck it all and do something they really love. Count your blessings.

[/ QUOTE ]

it sounds like Paul's biggest concern is his wife. it seems to have undertones that if he keeps this poker lifestyle he is afraid his wife will leave him. unfortunate what other people think and material possessions would lead him wife to think of leaving him but such is life i guess (this is coming from a 23 year old college kid so take my words with a grain of salt.)

[Lucky]

The real question is how much do you make playing and how much can you expect to make in 2006? If you're going to make 600k, you're wife will be fine with "stigma." If its 60k, the "stigma" will worsen.

this is a money decision.

[AceHigh]

Are you sure you can get a job at your old salary after being in poker for 18 months? New releases of software usually come out every 18 months or less and it only takes 6 months or so for you to lose some of your technical skills.

Is money that important that you want to be unhappy 8 hours a day?

Suggest to your wife that she get a job. Tell her you will watch the kids when she's at work and play poker at night. That should get her off your back for a while.

[PokerPaul]

lol, for a 23 yr old kid you sure are jumpping to conclusions about married life. But you have hit a good point.

No my wife is not thinking about leaving me, she is just a bit frustrated with situation at times, and its understandable.

However, i will say this. If we could rewind our lives back 12 yeasr to when we first met and hooked up, if i were to have told her back then that in 10 years from now i will stop working an office job and play poker for a living to support my future family, i don't know if she would have wanted to go much further with me. And could you blame her.

And i bet that goes for most other wives of current internet or live poker pros....

[KaneKungFu123]

i want to be a stay at home dad, seems like a sweet scam.

[ QUOTE ]
lol, for a 23 yr old kid you sure are jumpping to conclusions about married life. But you have hit a good point.

No my wife is not thinking about leaving me, she is just a bit frustrated with situation at times, and its understandable.

However, i will say this. If we could rewind our lives back 12 yeasr to when we first met and hooked up, if i were to have told her back then that in 10 years from now i will stop working an office job and play poker for a living to support my future family, i don't know if she would have wanted to go much further with me. And could you blame her.

And i bet that goes for most other wives of current internet or live poker pros....

[/ QUOTE ]

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
However, i will say this. If we could rewind our lives back 12 yeasr to when we first met and hooked up, if i were to have told her back then that in 10 years from now i will stop working an office job and play poker for a living to support my future family, i don't know if she would have wanted to go much further with me. And could you blame her.

And i bet that goes for most other wives of current internet or live poker pros....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. My wife isn't having any problems with it. ;-)

Hope whichever decision you end up making, that you're happy with it.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[PokerPaul]

Greg, thanks for you reply. Outside from occasional wisecracks here, these 2+2 boards are fantastic place to voice these thoughts and have people who really understand you give useful feedback.

Obviously greg with you your wife is very happy now, with your last 16 months which made most people entire career worth of earning in 1 spot.

But what about just before that, when you were still doing OK, but struggling to get by, and having to resort to solicite backers for entering poker tournaments.

At time it must have been tough or a bit awkward for her too. How did it make you feel?

[dogmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
Greg, thanks for you reply. Outside from occasional wisecracks here, these 2+2 boards are fantastic place to voice these thoughts and have people who really understand you give useful feedback.

Obviously greg with you your wife is very happy now, with your last 16 months which made most people entire career worth of earning in 1 spot.

But what about just before that, when you were still doing OK, but struggling to get by, and having to resort to solicite backers for entering poker tournaments.

At time it must have been tough or a bit awkward for her too. How did it make you feel?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to answer for Greg, but he wasn't just playing poker - he was a working attorney. He also was playing higher stakes than you are, and had a solid reputation at the tables and here...........neither of which you currently have.

I'm not trying to be an AH here, but based on your posts over the past six months I would say you had some excellent results the first 25K hands, then fell into a losing mode. Perhaps you have gotten back to where you are making 1-2BB per hour, but I make the assumptiion that you are back at the $5 tables and heading for a yearly earn of wellunder $100K. If this is the case, consider the job more heavily.

If I am wrong, and you are making over $100K, take some of the cash you have and get an office. Start a small business as a software consultant, and spend time at your office looking for clients, and playing poker online. This will make you an independant businessman, and everybody will think your main income is coming from your "profession" of software developement. If you are really successful at poker, there will be plenty of money to pay your bills, you might even get a software client, and you can travel to tournaments. If you are not really successful, then you won't have money for bills, and you will be forced to get a real job.....your talent in poker will lead the way.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Matt Flynn]

I set the over/under at three weeks before you'd start looking for a regular job.

[ QUOTE ]
Suggest to your wife that she get a job. Tell her you will watch the kids when she's at work and play poker at night. That should get her off your back for a while.

[/ QUOTE ]Spoken like a man who is single!

[PokerPaul]

well thanks for the "inspiring" post dog.

I ask greg an honest question, which directly relates to the original thread content, and you use it to let me know how greg was a hi limit player, a respected poster and an attorney, and i'm none of these things.

Thats fine if thats your opinion, but it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. My question related to how it affected his personal life prior to the big results.

And in same measure, if greg was such a successful hi limit player, according to you logic of poker taking care of itself if your good, why would he have to solicite backers?? Not that i think theres anything wrong with it..

And no, i am far removed from $5 sng, and am still doing wuite well at the game. In fact things right now have been going better in that respect.

As for that infamous post with my 25k hand results....yes it was a poor decision on my behalf, and i apologized for it.

And although i posted it as an honest question because i was baffled at the time myself at it......i later on realized that i did make a mistake, albeit unintentional.

At the time, you remember you had to request hh's from party..100 at a time via email. Well at time i had split them up between losing weeks and winning weeks into 2 seprate folders on my laptop.

On PT, it only included the winning weeks from automated reader download. Couple that with fact that at time i was having a very good stretch, so i didnt notice the few extra hh's were missing.

I can't belive i missed that oversight, but even when i did include them, i still had a hi win rate at time, but obvioulsy not as hi as previously indicated.

Anyways, i hope i could have avoided that whole thing, but like i said, i apologized, and thats all i can do.

[dogmeat]

[ QUOTE ]
well thanks for the "inspiring" post dog.

I ask greg an honest question, which directly relates to the original thread content, and you use it to let me know how greg was a hi limit player, a respected poster and an attorney, and i'm none of these things.

Thats fine if thats your opinion, but it has nothing to do with the matter at hand. My question related to how it affected his personal life prior to the big results.

And in same measure, if greg was such a successful hi limit player, according to you logic of poker taking care of itself if your good, why would he have to solicite

[/ QUOTE ]

Paul, I'll call a truce between us. I am not trying to be an insensitive jerk here, but my response that you are not playing the limits Greg played and don't have his respect on 2+2 are true - by your admission, it's my opinion. You are correct. If everybody else thinks you are great, well that's terrific.

However, greg had an agreement with his wife about his poker playing and financing it, he had very good results with-in the games he was playing, and that's what got people interested in backing him. I dare say you might not have as much success getting backers........

Now, back to your original question of whether you should keep playing poker or get a job - well, I guess you didn't like my answer there either. I didn't realize you wanted to be "inspired," I though you wanted an honest opinion, and I can only give an opinion based on your previous posts. So be it, sorry if I insulted you, I'm sure you are a great individual and also a very tallented player. I'll keep my opinions about you and your situation to myself from now on. Have a nice life.

Dogmeat /images/graemlins/spade.gif

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Paul, my post was meant as a cute joke, given the situation. However, since I had a full time job with full benefits (until I quit a week after winning the WSOP), my wife had no problem with my playing poker as a 2nd job. If I had quit Pfizer before winning the WSOP and played poker full-time instead, she would have had a huge problem with it. But she had no problems with what I was actually doing at that time, as poker winnings had done a lot for us, including putting up the downpayment on our house in CT.

I have no significant advice for you. Doing what makes you happiest is too simplistic to be really useful advice. Of course, your happiness is a big part of the answer, but it is not everything. If it was everything, then there is no give and take in your marriage. And even if your wife was going to be happy with you doing whatever maximized your own personal happiness, that's still not an option anymore when you have kids. They deserve consideration as well.

Thus, you have to balance what is best for them, with what is best for you alone, and make a decision. It's going to be a tough decision, and I don't envy you the task.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[grandgnu]

I wouldn't worry about "social circles", but then again, I'm not some hob-nobbing snob. I'm only 28, but I've noticed that as you grow older, you don't really keep in contact with as many people.

I don't really have a "social circle", just aquantinces for the most part.

Poker is great, in that it can provide you with a lot more free time. Most people in the U.S. work way too many hours, and don't have time to spend with their families, or social or luxury time.

The problem you face is that you're trying to maintain a certain "lifestyle". While being able to afford new "stuff" is always nice, free time is one of the most precious things you can earn.

If you're able to live comfortably, without fear of being unable to cover any emergency situations, then the freedom that poker allows is always welcome.

Right now, I'm just going "semi-pro". I don't depend on poker to pay the bills, and I don't mix my poker money with my "regular" money.

You seem insecure in your long-term viability playing poker. I would definetely recommend that you find some type of regular paycheck that you can depend on, just for your own piece of mind. Wish you the best.

[Myrtle]

Paul,

I don’t know if you’re at a ‘crisis’ point yet. That would be defined by you and your wife. However, it is obviously a very serious decision with far reaching ramifications.

I’ve read & re-read your post a couple of times to try to get a handle on what points your decision will hinge. You’ve mentioned a few:

-Long term viability of poker as your sole income.
- Viability of your current skill set in the software industry
- Social stigma
- Your ‘love of the game’.
- ‘Regular job/regular paycheck’
- Emotional swings as a poker ‘pro’
- Classmates entering ‘prime earning years of their careers
- Your 2 children
- Your age
- Which way you want to go in your life.

These are all significant and worthwhile discussion points, and if you think about it (and I’m sure you have!) there are numbers of others that factor into your decision.

Some of the responders to your post (El Diablo, Mark Heide, Greg, and Dogmeat amongst others) have brought up some valid & good points that I believe are well worth considering.

Here’s how I’d attempt to solve the issue.

Step 1.) List all of your viable options; i.e. Full time software (both working for someone else and/or starting your own business); full time poker pro; part-time doing both, etc. Discuss this with your wife to ensure that you are both aware of every option, as there may be others that are not immediately evident. To state the obvious, before you can make a good decision you must know what ALL of your options are, regardless of how acceptable or unacceptable any of them are to either you or your wife.

Step 2.) Make a T-Chart. I’d suggest that both you and your wife do this separately at first. You don’t want either of your opinions influencing the other party. The T-Chart should include the discussion points above, and any other issues that either of you consider relevant. I’d be willing to bet that you list some that she doesn’t, and vice-versa. Assign some kind of ‘weight’ scoring system (1-10 or whatever you fell comfortable with) and score each one of the issues + and – on the T Chart.

Do this separately, and then compare and discuss the two, focusing on agreed upon points first, and then dealing with the disagreements. In computer programming terms: Drill-Down time. Depending upon the volatility of the subjects and the degree of difference of opinion between the two of you, this may not be an easy exercise. However, the reality of the situation is that whatever decision is to be made, it must be made by BOTH of you and supported fully by both of you if it is to have a chance of succeeding.

Once you get to that point, I would then discuss ‘fall-back options and strategies’ that you would collectively put in place should the original plan not go as expected.

To again state the obvious, this is a complicated and emotionally charged issue, and it’s very easy to get side-tracked by many of the important discussion points.

I wish you luck, and remember....Men are from Mars.....Women are from Venus.

[PokerPaul]

thanks myrtle....

i am having an indepth discussion with her about this tonight alreayd, but maybe that T chart suggestion might help.

Sounds like you are in a similar situation perhaps??

Yes men are from mars....women are from venus...but poker fanatics are from womewhere else....

[Myrtle]

Paul,

.....not surrounding poker.

I am very fortunate to have a wonderful, insightful and supportive wife.

Over the years, however, we've had more than our share of disagreements, and after we get over the Mars/Venus bump, we get down to business and work the "options & priorities" until we come to an agreement that we both feel good about.

Good luck again......

[KaneKungFu123]

i play 30-40 hrs/week

the first 15-20 come rather easily. the last 10-20 are rather hard to be completely honest. i think most pros will agree with this.

try to find an office job where you can play poker.

[Easy E]

I'll comment on this great post (great from a discussion standpoint, not the stress on you) when I have a little more time.
I haven't read the replies either, so my comments may be shortened as repetitive.

[scrapperdog]

If someone says you are unemployed set them strait. Dont beat around the bush.

What are 2 of the things people like to do the least? How about give strangers money and have someone beat them in a compitition.

Your work is hard. Convincing strangers to give you money is not easy, or everyone would do it. You work just as hard as anyone else... dont put up with snide comments.

Here is a thought on the subject.
To start a professional poker career I think you need to be a big winner at the high stakes. I am playing lots of poker and make some decent money. On the other hand the earning volatility is rather destructive (unless you are a maniac). For me it was an easy decision since my work pays a bit to much for me to quit. Also factoring in the premium for pension, healthcare and the stability of earnings.

However I am not giving up on poker, it is to much fun and nice extra money (if you have a +ev). I also think things will bet better when the competition among poker rooms heat up and the rakes begin to drop. It is rather stupid that we pay these rooms so much of our own money.

I have given myself an ultimatum to continue work untill (if ever) I average 2-2.5 times the amount I get from work in disposable income, but including some benefits like pension. That would imply profitable play at $15-30 limit or $5-10NL, anything less will not cut it in the long term. Also playing on the Internet for higher stakes is very beneficial for the rake. with 300-1000 average pots the rake is only 0.3%-1%.

Lots of unstructured thoughts here but hopefully to some help. Hope my english was not to poor (im swedish.)

:O