A9o question

[Online247]

Party Poker 2.00/4.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font> link (http://www.darksun.lunarpages.com/poker/)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6.00 SB) A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 bets</font>, Hero???

Well I called the flop with TP and a backdoor flush draw. Now on the turn the original bettor slowed down and checked while MP3 decides to fire out a bullet.

I don't know what to do because UTG+1 has limped with QQ's before and slowplayed them to river against my Jacks where he suddenly decided to c/r on a raggedy board. So in other words his postflop is funky and he's a sandbagger and aggresive.

I have no reads on MP3.

With that what would be the best line here?

[NateDog]

Raise the flop. Bet the turn, after it's checked to you.

[Online247]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Bet the turn, after it's checked to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

And pump up the pot (equity) for those with OESD and flush draws?

I fold this preflop. I'm not sure about the flop. As played I think I raise the turn, protecting my hand and taking a free showdown, though I'd like to here what everyone thinks.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Bet the turn, after it's checked to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

And pump up the pot (equity) for those with OESD and flush draws?

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of an odd concept here, but do you realize that more than one person can "make money" in a single hand?

Edit - not to say I necessarily agree with raising this flop

I raise this flop and bet the turn. The river I will probably check down.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I fold this preflop. I'm not sure about the flop. As played I think I raise the turn, protecting my hand and taking a free showdown, though I'd like to here what everyone thinks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. A flop raise doesn't protect against a flush draw or OESD. If 3-bet on the turn call and check/fold the river UI.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise this flop and bet the turn. The river I will probably check down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok...why?

Free card play on the flop. I bet the turn to hopefully get to check the river. I will fold the turn to a reraise if I dont have a flush draw.

[NateDog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Bet the turn, after it's checked to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

And pump up the pot (equity) for those with OESD and flush draws?

[/ QUOTE ]

These hands are going to have odds to draw no matter what you do. Even a flop raise is offering SB 5:1. (Though it faces him with 2 cold, and he may fold. Same goes for BB) The problem with getting involved in a multiway pot with a trash hand like A9o is exactly what you've encountered here. You don't know where you stand, and it may be expensive to get to showdown.

The way you played it, you can raise MP3's turn bet, and fold out SB/BB. Check behind on the river UI.

[Online247]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Raise the flop. Bet the turn, after it's checked to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

And pump up the pot (equity) for those with OESD and flush draws?

[/ QUOTE ]

These hands are going to have odds to draw no matter what you do. Even a flop raise is offering SB 5:1. (Though it faces him with 2 cold, and he may fold. Same goes for BB) The problem with getting involved in a multiway pot with a trash hand like A9o is exactly what you've encountered here. You don't know where you stand, and it may be expensive to get to showdown.

The way you played it, you can raise MP3's turn bet, and fold out SB/BB. Check behind on the river UI.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't talking about odds, I was talking about equity. As far as the limp goes I knew button was tight so limping would give me the button without having to raise. I believe ATo in late position is a profitable hand, so A9 can't be much worse.

[Klompy]

fold pf

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
I believe ATo in late position is a profitable hand, so A9 can't be much worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

A9 is much worse than AT, since you can't make a 2-card straight with it.

[Fryguy]

fold pf, weak aces don't play well in multi-way pots, and it's going to be at least 5 way. Not a good sign for your ace.

[Online247]

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I believe ATo in late position is a profitable hand, so A9 can't be much worse.

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A9 is much worse than AT, since you can't make a 2-card straight with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I was looking at it more of a high card strength than it's straight potential but certainly something to think about. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Online247]

[ QUOTE ]
fold pf, weak aces don't play well in multi-way pots, and it's going to be at least 5 way. Not a good sign for your ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

True it doens't play multiway, I only limped it because the player to my left was quite tight. I wouldnt' limp something like this UTG or in MP.

[shermn27]

If there was less action in front of you, I would raise PF. With that many callers, I am folding PF.

I raise the flop for sure so I can get a read on what sort of hands the blinds have. I am guessing they fold to your raise unless they have a strong draw. Also, this improves your chances of winning the pot right away they fold. If checked to me on the turn, I would bet. If bet to me on the turn, I probably only call.

[bozlax]

[ QUOTE ]
Free card play on the flop. I bet the turn to hopefully get to check the river. I will fold the turn to a reraise if I dont have a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're planning to bet the turn, then it's not a free-card play on the flop. So, save the raise for the turn, where you WILL be able to protect your hand, as opposed to the flop where you can't.

Also your love for your hand is going to change significantly on the turn. I actually believe that the king helps you a lot, since you don't have to worry about your dominated kicker playing when the board pairs on the river.

[NateDog]

Equity on a certain street will only change if someone folds (or if the card *poof* changes). Raising the flop may change your equity, but only if you manage to fold out one of the limpers.

IMO there is a huge difference between ATo and A9o. Not only because of the broadway straight that is possible with AT, but a pair of T's is more likely to win a pot then a pair of 9's. (Blatantly stolen content from SSHE.)

I think it's also important that your opponents are more likely to play hands lke K10 and Q10 and j10 than hands like k9etc. thus you get paid off more when you hit a pair of tens.