Small No Limit Tournament - advice, please.

[Mike Haven]

i'm in a small online tournament on thursday - maybe 20 or 30 players

it is quite likely that most of them will be experienced and better players than average - certainly better than me

i don't want them to know that i haven't played no limit before as they will definitely try to beat me up if they get a hint of weakness

i have watched a couple of one table tournies over the last day or two and a couple of things puzzle me particularly

there seems to be a lot of limping in at minimum cost, or minimal raising, by many players, in the early stages at least - is this the "accepted" practice, pre-flop?

then sometimes there is a disproportionately huge all in bet on the flop, or, alternatively, there are relatively low flop, turn, and, occasionaly, river bets

is there an accepted "standard" amount for the "ordinary" flop, turn and river bets if you have a fair but not nut hand?

i don't want to play "the system" but i don't want to make a total arse of myself by not knowing what to do and when

any tips on procedures, (not necessarily on how to win), please?

thank you

[DaNoob]

I would guess that I'm much less experienced both in NL and other tourneys, but here's my $.02:

Preflop limping: Sklansky's tournament book recommends limping in the early stages (rounds 1 & 2) of a tourney to see if you catch a decent piece of the flop. Since the blinds are such a small % of your total stack, and it's NL, the implied odds are pretty good. Once the flop hits, NL gives you the unique ability to size your bet so that your opponents (who are on a draw) don't have the right odds to call. You'll often notice the better players betting Pot or near-Pot sized bets to fold out the flush/straight draws.

Every now and again, you'll see someone throw in their whole stack. I'd say maybe 1/3 of the time this is a steal attempt (people are much less likely to risk the whole enchilada in the early rounds). The other 2/3 of the time, they've got a good enough hand that they'd love someone to call.

For general procedures, there are several great books out there. My typical practice is to play loose in rounds 1 & 2, tighten up in the middle rounds, and then start with some steal attempts once the blinds get bigger and/or the antes begin.

I think that's only about $.015 worth of advice, but that's all I got for now...

Good luck!!

[Bama Boy]

"i'm in a small online tournament on thursday - maybe 20 or 30 players"

Hilarious! Good luck to you, I'll be watching if a home game doesn't break out then. If you have to remember one thing, its that nobody wants to be the first one out of the tournament. This can explain alot of the early timid play you see. Its just a natural thought that gets put into your head. Just remember it and be aware, and then try to play good poker.

I think you'll get a feel for what to bet in No-Limit. If your keen on pot odds and all, you can make the bets what they need to be, or if you have a "feel" from experience of what those are that can work too. I typically look at it from the opponents point of view. If he has TJs would he call $X? Would I? Hope this little bit of ramble is useful.

[Mike Haven]

that's pretty much the kind of stuff i wanted to hear - thanks very much - that will be useful

[Mike Haven]

cheers, bama boy - thank you

actually, i'm starting to think that being first out might not be such a bad idea seeing as i have little chance to finish too much higher - that way at least i can get to bed by about our 4 am!

[Greg (FossilMan)]

It doesn't necessarily matter if it's early or late, if the stacks are deep compared to the blinds, then limping in with a hand that has proper potential can be just fine. However, there are very few tourneys where the stacks are deep enough once you get past the first level or 2, so you see less and less limping as you proceed.

As for bet size, I am a strong advocate of betting the pot unless you have a very specific reason to bet a different amount. As you gain experience, you will learn when to bet more and when to bet less. I find that the more I learn, the more I tend to bet around 1/2 to 2/3 of the pot as a "standard" bet.

If your standard bet will use up 40% of your stack or more, then betting/raising all-in is probably the better choice.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Mike Haven]

thank you greg

i played a practice tourney last night and i found it "natural" for me to bet the size of the pot - but twice i had no calls with very good hands - once another player had the same hand

someone told me this was fine to do but that i would have to bet the pot when i was trying to steal too - i'm not sure i have the maracas to do that so i'll maybe try another one tonight with half-pot as my standard bet and see if i am comfortable with that

[sdplayerb]

Greg,

Very interesting on now betting 1/2 to 2/3s of the pot. Can you please give reasoning why you think that is the better play?

I usually use around 75%, whether a bluff or a real bet. Just feel like a full pot bet could be over committing myself too much.

[Mike Haven]

well, i tried another tourney tonight, no limit one table at paradise, with the intention of making half-pot bets

but unfortunately the guys were fairly loose and wild so i could see that only big bets would have any effect unless i wanted to be called and i reverted to pot and all in bets

the good news is i came in second - the bad news is i'm going into tomorrow's tourney without having road-tested your advice to see if it suits me

maybe "the system" ain't such a bad idea after all ...

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Don't mess with the Klingon /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

[Greg (FossilMan)]

There is an old wisdom that says you don't win tournaments, you steal them. While there are no absolutes in poker, there is a lot of truth to this wisdom.

So, since there is a lot of stealing, and getting caught is a bad thing, you want to lose the minimum when you get caught. Therefore, I'm often seeing how little I can raise and still take down the blinds/antes and/or pots. There is a lot of judgment here, and you can make devastating errors, as how much it will take varies from opponent to opponent. Of course, if it takes too much, you just stop, and wait for a premium hand that they will pay off instead.

So, if the blinds are 300-600, my "standard" raise would be about 1800. However, I'll often start making it 1500 or 1600 instead, and see if it works. I seldom get down to just doubling the big blind, but will on some occasions. One of my goals is to improve the ratio of what I win compared to what I'm risking.

When you add antes to NLH games, stealing can really become huge. The antes are pretty big in some events, so it can work out where the blinds are 300-600, and the ante is 100. This can put 1800 in the pot preflop, and so if you take it down with your raise to 1800, you only have to succeed half the time to break even. And that's assuming you always lose 1800 every time you don't succeed immediately, which is not true. Sometimes, you have an average stack, notice that everybody else is tightening up, and simply steal your way to a big stack in just 1 or 2 orbits.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[nicky g]

Hi Mike,

You want to tailor your bets to the texture of the flop to a certain extent, as Ciaffone writes in Pot Limit and No Limit poker. He's talking about cash games, but it applies to tourneys as well, though probably slightly differently.
Anyway, he sugests betting the full size of the pot (or more in NL) if the flop is threateningly coordinated, to charge draws the maximum. If it's ragged (eg K72 rainbow) then he suggests a bet of between 1/3 and 2/3 of the pot, whether or not you're blufing of have a hand. Of course you also have to think about how deep the money is too. On the river it's more a matter of feel, as all the cards are out - you also might want to induce a bluff.
Preflop, I always raise to at least between 3x and 4x the BB if i'm first in, occasionally more, and always at least the pot if others are already in, though that' just what I do, not advice - you're better off listening to Greg who ahs a ton of experience (against my total lack of experience) - though I think just doubling the blind is usually a very bad idea.