top pair in big pot

[Guruman]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

this is my first hand at this table, pot sizes were above avg.

Preflop: Hero is BB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

this looks standard to me.

Flop: (8.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

given the buttons pf raise, I considered going for the c/r to protect my hand. In the end, I wasn't confident about where the bet would come from, and I just led out myself.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

CO's flop raise came from out of the blue, so I decided to slow down and get to showdown. I couldn't see him on much of a draw, but I feel like I still have enough equity to continue. Horrible?

River: (9.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls.

check/call for showdown.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

[lufbradolly]

I'd 3 bet the flop.

Your lines ok but the times the CO is raising with a flush draw he can take the free card on the turn. Which he wouldn't do if you take the lead with likely the best hand.

[Guruman]

i'll admit that I didn't immediately consider a flop 3-bet, but in retrospect it may be bad move anyway since CO obviously doesn't fear either me or the button on the flop.

does anyone fold the turn here?

[hemstock]

I propably fold this river if I have a decent read. I called with my outs on the turn but CO has told you throughout the hand that he can beat top pair.

[istewart]

Easy flop check/raise man. You missed out.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
I propably fold this river if I have a decent read. I called with my outs on the turn but CO has told you throughout the hand that he can beat top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell? CO raised the flop and then bet each street. That isn't exactly monster aggression. I think folding the river sucks to be honest. People play JT/QT/any ten like this all the time.

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]
Easy flop check/raise man. You missed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

whats your line on the turn and river if a flop c/r gets three bet?

thx!

[hemstock]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I propably fold this river if I have a decent read. I called with my outs on the turn but CO has told you throughout the hand that he can beat top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the hell? CO raised the flop and then bet each street. That isn't exactly monster aggression. I think folding the river sucks to be honest. People play JT/QT/any ten like this all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why you gotta have READS man. Know your oppoenent. If he is aggressive you might as well go ahead and call. But against passive opponents you are throughing money away. Almost all of the time, this line for passive opponents means you're beat.
So given it's his first hand at the table, a call is ok I guess.

[POKhER]

I didn't grunch.

Donk bet the turn, then call down a raise.

Or donk bet river.

i reckon we are ahead often here!

I'd play like villan has with JT, QT and his bet on the turn/river is expected as right now you could hold OCs easily.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Easy flop check/raise man. You missed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

whats your line on the turn and river if a flop c/r gets three bet?

thx!

[/ QUOTE ]

I would call the flop hoping to improve. Then if the pot was big enough on the turn I would call again, but I would assume you're behind a decent amount if he bet/3-bets the flop unless he has big diamonds. I don't like folding the river with TPGK to unknowns but if you get there it's probably the right play.

[hemstock]

You have 5 outs that all of them look solid clear outs. Folding anywhere but the river is a mistake.

[istewart]

[ QUOTE ]
You have 5 outs that all of them look solid clear outs. Folding anywhere but the river is a mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

For one, pot size is a consideration. I didn't calculate how big it would be if we get 3-bet on the flop so I'm not sure.

Second of all, you contradict yourself. You say CO has given us every reason to assume we are behind here... yet we have 5 outs? We have 5 outs to a hand better THAN WE CURRENTLY HAVE. Are you putting him on 54o? If he has AT we have 3 outs. If he has a set we're drawing dead. If he has T4 we have 3 outs. We can't assume we're behind on this board yet give all of our outs full credit for ensuring us this pot.

[digitalis]

Flop:
I would have gone for the C/R here. Your hand is vulnerable and the pot is large. I would 3-bet the flop the way you played it.

Turn:
Since you didn't C/R or 3-bet the flop, it makes the turn harder to play. If you had, you would have given the CO an opportunity to show you he has TP beat- at which point you can consider folding against passive opponents.

The way you played it you can't be sure enough that you are behind, even against passive opponents.

[hemstock]

[ QUOTE ]
No

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
A Ten or a King almost always gives you the best hand here. You have the correct pot odds. I don't see how I contradict myself. I'm saying we are BEHIND but we have 5 CLEAR outs to improve. If you think your outs are not clear, then calling the turn is a mistake.

[hemstock]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you putting him on 54o?

[/ QUOTE ]

And don't try to be stupid.
I'm putting him on the obvious. An overpair. It could be a flush draw as well though.

[istewart]

CO didn't raise preflop. Button did. You're putting him on JJ+? If he has a flush draw we're ahead, not behind. WTF are you talking about?

There are very few ways we can be behind to CO on this board where another ten will give us the best hand.

Totally standard. Nice play.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
given the buttons pf raise, I considered going for the c/r to protect my hand. In the end, I wasn't confident about where the bet would come from, and I just led out myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no reason to think that the bet would not come from the button. And if it comes from somewhere else, it's no worse than if you had bet it yourself. If there is *EVER* a time to think a check-raise is good, it's when the preflop raiser has the button and you're first to act.

[Mathieu]

I prefer check raising this flop, to protect against overcards and gutshots.

The way it played out, I would call* the flop, and lead out on that turn card. You are most likely ahead here as CO might have raised you with JT,QT thinking that you were betting a draw. Also CO could have raised you with a strong flush draw and it would suck to give MP2 and CO a free card.

If he raises on the turn, I call down in case he's overplaying a weaker T or some strong draw.

* EDIT* It's better to reraise the flop because MP is trapped in between for only 1 bet and might fold for 2 more. He may have a very weak draw or made hand, so we have to re-raise to protect our hand.

[Guruman]

[ QUOTE ]

I would call the flop hoping to improve. Then if the pot was big enough on the turn I would call again, but I would assume you're behind a decent amount if he bet/3-bets the flop unless he has big diamonds. I don't like folding the river with TPGK to unknowns but if you get there it's probably the right play.

[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like the clear line here is to go for the c/r on the flop. If CO bets it (as he did) and button raises, I can probably fold safely. If CO bets and button folds or calls, the raise will put mp1 in a tough spot, and any draws are coming along anyway.

Given what CO showed down, I'm confident he would have three-bet a flop c/r, which is why I asked what your line would be in that circumstance.

It looks like the line would be to call the raise and check/call the turn, check/fold the river UI.

better?

[Buckmulligan]

This flop is a nice place to check/raise. Your line doesn't look bad, but a bet/fold on the turn with your read might save you a call on the river and protect your hand if CO is taking freecards.