MUST I call all-in river bet with A-high flush?

81-person turbo satellite to WCOOP is just underway (10-20 hands). No reads on anyone yet, but the table has been tight.

Is there any way I lay this down on the river? Also, was my river bet OK?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button (Villain) (t1525)
SB (t1595)
BB (t1540)
UTG (t1510)
UTG+1 (t1470)
Hero (t1470)
MP2 (t1520)
MP3 (t1420)
CO (t1450)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button (Villain) calls t30, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t90</font>, Hero calls t90, Villain calls t90, SB folds, BB folds.

Turn: (t420) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets t90</font>, Hero calls t90, Villain calls t90.

River: (t690) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t300</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Villain raises to t1315</font>, UTG folds, Hero ???

[mrh86]

Unless you can put him on a pair of threes or fours, you have to call.

very easy call. Possibility of a lower flush alone makes it a good call, plus 56 or a5 or just a random bluff

[Matador225]

I don't think you can assume he has a full house. There's a good chance he was betting his flush draw the whole way. But I here what your saying. It has to be pretty obvious to a decent player that you made your flush on the river and if he had a full house he might play it the way he did. Its early and you gotta accumulate, so I think its a pretty easy call.

[betgo]

I think you have to call.

Why is everyone worried about a boat? 6s5s is a straight flush and 22 is quads.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to call.

Why is everyone worried about a boat? 6s5s is a straight flush and 22 is quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well played sir.


This is one reason I don't like playing A8s from EP, early in a tourney. Bad OP, bad.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to call.

Why is everyone worried about a boat? 6s5s is a straight flush and 22 is quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well played sir.


This is one reason I don't like playing A8s from EP, early in a tourney. Bad OP, bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you sir, may I have another? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously, though, I am interested in why you don't play A8s from EP early in a tourney. I thought I would be able to limp in, see if I got a flush draw (if not, probably get out), and then see if I could get the right odds to call (I think I did, with implied odds). My rationale is that most of the value in A8s is in a potential flush draw, and that it is probably +EV if you can get to the flop cheaply with it and then re-assess.

Also, you mentioned the distinction between early in the tourney v. later. I don't understand, could you explain? Thanks.

[mrh86]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to call.

Why is everyone worried about a boat? 6s5s is a straight flush and 22 is quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well played sir.


This is one reason I don't like playing A8s from EP, early in a tourney. Bad OP, bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you sir, may I have another? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously, though, I am interested in why you don't play A8s from EP early in a tourney. I thought I would be able to limp in, see if I got a flush draw (if not, probably get out), and then see if I could get the right odds to call (I think I did, with implied odds). My rationale is that most of the value in A8s is in a potential flush draw, and that it is probably +EV if you can get to the flop cheaply with it and then re-assess.

Also, you mentioned the distinction between early in the tourney v. later. I don't understand, could you explain? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to get put in tough decisions for all of your chips early in a tournament. It's not theoretically proper to raise you all in on the river with the blinds that small unless he had the nuts. When the blinds are small, you want to play extremely tight and only enter pots when you believe you have a distinct advantage. I have a lot of experience with losing a ton of chips in the early rounds, and now I just instantly fold anything except pocket pairs, AQ, AK and I'll even play KQ and AJ suited if I can get in cheap.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to call.

Why is everyone worried about a boat? 6s5s is a straight flush and 22 is quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well played sir.


This is one reason I don't like playing A8s from EP, early in a tourney. Bad OP, bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you sir, may I have another? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously, though, I am interested in why you don't play A8s from EP early in a tourney. I thought I would be able to limp in, see if I got a flush draw (if not, probably get out), and then see if I could get the right odds to call (I think I did, with implied odds). My rationale is that most of the value in A8s is in a potential flush draw, and that it is probably +EV if you can get to the flop cheaply with it and then re-assess.

Also, you mentioned the distinction between early in the tourney v. later. I don't understand, could you explain? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to get put in tough decisions for all of your chips early in a tournament. It's not theoretically proper to raise you all in on the river with the blinds that small unless he had the nuts. When the blinds are small, you want to play extremely tight and only enter pots when you believe you have a distinct advantage. I have a lot of experience with losing a ton of chips in the early rounds, and now I just instantly fold anything except pocket pairs, AQ, AK and I'll even play KQ and AJ suited if I can get in cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty new to MTT's, but I'm confused about two pieces of advice. Here you advocate a tight early strategy similar to SNGs, but I've often heard people say that you need to push edges and take more risks to accumulate chips early. So should you be seeing a lot of cheap flops with drawing hands hoping to hit a monster or play tight?

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to call.

Why is everyone worried about a boat? 6s5s is a straight flush and 22 is quads.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well played sir.


This is one reason I don't like playing A8s from EP, early in a tourney. Bad OP, bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you sir, may I have another? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously, though, I am interested in why you don't play A8s from EP early in a tourney. I thought I would be able to limp in, see if I got a flush draw (if not, probably get out), and then see if I could get the right odds to call (I think I did, with implied odds). My rationale is that most of the value in A8s is in a potential flush draw, and that it is probably +EV if you can get to the flop cheaply with it and then re-assess.

Also, you mentioned the distinction between early in the tourney v. later. I don't understand, could you explain? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm totally clear, but when I say "well played sir" I'm talking about betgo's comment. He's basically saying "don't be scared of monsters under the bed", if you're scared to call in this situation, you might as well be scared of quads or a straight flush.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty new to MTT's, but I'm confused about two pieces of advice. Here you advocate a tight early strategy similar to SNGs, but I've often heard people say that you need to push edges and take more risks to accumulate chips early. So should you be seeing a lot of cheap flops with drawing hands hoping to hit a monster or play tight?


[/ QUOTE ]

There's two schools of thought, generally, on early stage strategy, accumulators vs survivalists. You can tell by the name how each plays.

But, taking risks and pushing edges does not neccessarily mean taking A LOT of risk and pushing A LOT of edges OFTEN. When people say take risks, they're talking about pushing AKs into a PF raiser even though you might be racing with TT. The key is to try to get your money in when you think you're ahead often enough to win.

If you're playing to win first, there's no way you'll ever get thru a tourney w/o winning several coinflips or 60/40s, and sucking out when you thought you had an edge and took a risk, but actually weren't.

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to call.

Why is everyone worried about a boat? 6s5s is a straight flush and 22 is quads.

[/ QUOTE ]


Well played sir.


This is one reason I don't like playing A8s from EP, early in a tourney. Bad OP, bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you sir, may I have another? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously, though, I am interested in why you don't play A8s from EP early in a tourney. I thought I would be able to limp in, see if I got a flush draw (if not, probably get out), and then see if I could get the right odds to call (I think I did, with implied odds). My rationale is that most of the value in A8s is in a potential flush draw, and that it is probably +EV if you can get to the flop cheaply with it and then re-assess.

Also, you mentioned the distinction between early in the tourney v. later. I don't understand, could you explain? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to get put in tough decisions for all of your chips early in a tournament. It's not theoretically proper to raise you all in on the river with the blinds that small unless he had the nuts. When the blinds are small, you want to play extremely tight and only enter pots when you believe you have a distinct advantage. I have a lot of experience with losing a ton of chips in the early rounds, and now I just instantly fold anything except pocket pairs, AQ, AK and I'll even play KQ and AJ suited if I can get in cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty new to MTT's, but I'm confused about two pieces of advice. Here you advocate a tight early strategy similar to SNGs, but I've often heard people say that you need to push edges and take more risks to accumulate chips early. So should you be seeing a lot of cheap flops with drawing hands hoping to hit a monster or play tight?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its largely a matter of style in MTTs. Either approach can be profitable in the long run, but when you are entering pots with drawing hands you better be an excellent post-flop player or your going to increase your variance significantly.

I also thinkg the looser approach may be better suited to live games where you can get better reads on an opponent.

[Masquerade]

He's got you beat here. Lay it down.

[Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]



This is one reason I don't like playing A8s from EP, early in a tourney. Bad OP, bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]


Thank you sir, may I have another? /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Seriously, though, I am interested in why you don't play A8s from EP early in a tourney. I thought I would be able to limp in, see if I got a flush draw (if not, probably get out), and then see if I could get the right odds to call (I think I did, with implied odds). My rationale is that most of the value in A8s is in a potential flush draw, and that it is probably +EV if you can get to the flop cheaply with it and then re-assess.

Also, you mentioned the distinction between early in the tourney v. later. I don't understand, could you explain? Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't want to get put in tough decisions for all of your chips early in a tournament. It's not theoretically proper to raise you all in on the river with the blinds that small unless he had the nuts. When the blinds are small, you want to play extremely tight and only enter pots when you believe you have a distinct advantage. I have a lot of experience with losing a ton of chips in the early rounds, and now I just instantly fold anything except pocket pairs, AQ, AK and I'll even play KQ and AJ suited if I can get in cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I pretty much agree with this. I wouldn't play A8s from EP, because I'm early position. You don't want to call PF, just to have it raised behind you and now you have to fold. You don't want to call a small bet post flop (b/c you have odds to hit your flush) only to have someone push behind you. It's very very easy to get carried away playing suited aces.

Position is everything.

Later in a tourney sometimes you can start opening up more, like pushing from the button with A8s when it folds to you because you only have 8 big blinds.

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm totally clear, but when I say "well played sir" I'm talking about betgo's comment.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understood -- I was responsding to the "bad op, bad" part of your post. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TheBlueMonster]

[ QUOTE ]
very easy call. Possibility of a lower flush alone makes it a good call, plus 56 or a5 or just a random bluff

[/ QUOTE ]
yup, exactly.
I've only layed down an ace high flush once...turns out he had a straight flush so I was proud of myself.

[AtlBrvs4Life]

It's a freakin turbo. Call.

[bruce]

I would probably fold on the flop with a paired board and several active players behind me yet to act. I'm not afraid of monsters but why get involved in a small pot when
you may not being drawing live or some of your potential spade outs are really not outs. If my call closes the action then perhaps I might get involved, but with the action still open I play another hand.

Bruce

[benneh]

i don't ever fold this

[fnurt]

Villain has been calling all the way. This could be a trap, but it could very easily be a lower flush. I can't fold the nut flush on this board.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
Villain has been calling all the way. This could be a trap, but it could very easily be a lower flush. I can't fold the nut flush on this board.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this were the UTG, I could see folding this, but it looks too much like he was on a draw. The odds of a lower flush are too great.

[nortonmalc]

So when you went into this hand you were really playing for the nut flush, now you have it and you don't want to play it? If you can get pushed off of the hand you were hoping for on the river, why even play those hands?

[KneeCo]

There are enough hands here that he would push that you have beat. I don't know if I would say it is a "must", but I would call 10/10, especially, as someone mentioned, since the tourney is a turbo.

[ QUOTE ]
So when you went into this hand you were really playing for the nut flush, now you have it and you don't want to play it? If you can get pushed off of the hand you were hoping for on the river, why even play those hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly, I didn't get pushed off the hand. I called, and he showed quad 2s.

My point in posting this hand was that I wondered whether -- even with the nut flush -- I should call an all-in this early in a tourney (even a turbo) with the board paired and against an opponent who probably thinks I made a very good flush YET STILL GOES ALL-IN. The consensus is call, and I agree with it, but still I can't help thinking that I didn't read my opponent and the board very well.

Also, I don't think it's a question of "why play this hand if you're just going to be pushed off it" but rather whether the decision itself, given all the information at hand, is a good one (I suspect some very good players have layed down nut flushes when the information pointed to a full house, for instance, and an incorrect call would cost a huge amount). There are many strong hands that I would like to have because I am generally likely to win, yet even with such strong hands I can legitimately believe they are beaten in given instances. (For what it's worth, however, the OP was not one of them: I thought Villain had a slightly lower flush or possibly trips).