Live hand vs Justin A

[DeathDonkey]

8/16 at Oceans 11. Both of us are playing a bit loose / wacky but mostly serious. Also I am playing badly, but regardless of that, 2 limpers and I raise Q /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif on the button. Justin coldcalls in the SB saying "let's get a kill pot" (he won the previous hand) BB folds and the two limpers call.

Flop is J /images/graemlins/club.gif9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif checked to me, I bet, Justin calls, both limpers call.

Turn is T /images/graemlins/heart.gif checked to me I bet, Justin checkraises, limpers fold, I call.

River is 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Justin bets and I call.

-DeathDonkey

[toss]

I don't see much value in a river raise either.

[newhizzle]

i raise/call river, KQ is a possibility, but i want to get my value out of a set

[thesharpie]

[ QUOTE ]
i raise/call river, KQ is a possibility, but i want to get my value out of a set

[/ QUOTE ]

There are more ways he can have KQ than a set. I'm guessing he doesn't pay off 2 pair, maybe he would with JTs and he will with 87s. Still not enough to raise.

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]

There are more ways he can have KQ than a set. I'm guessing he doesn't pay off 2 pair, maybe he would with JTs and he will with 87s. Still not enough to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Both of us are playing a bit loose / wacky but mostly serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think if their both playing a bit loose and wacky, hes def going to pay off with two pair, under normal conditions, maybe not

Edit: and his hand range will get bigger, especially when hes leg up

[toss]

Does Justin A really think that DD is going to raise with a worse two pair?

[newhizzle]

[ QUOTE ]
Does Justin A really think that DD is going to raise with a worse two pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

i guess it depends on wht he means by loose and wacky, but probly not

[PatJ]

I feel like a farmer watching clouds of locusts descend over his crops...

But considering how the table was playing and that the hand was pretty much just the two of you woudn't justin's range of hands for the turn c/r and the river bet be considerably larger than normal?

[nfscreech]

Why would Justin blast away the field on the turn if he had KQ?

Raise the river.

[gaming_mouse]

especially if he knows you're playing loose/wacky, there are alot of hands you beat that he'll call with. KQ seems very unlikely to me given his turn raise, so there's not much danger in a raise either.

[eviljeff]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would Justin blast away the field on the turn if he had KQ?

[/ QUOTE ]

word.

[toss]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would Justin blast away the field on the turn if he had KQ?

Raise the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn I can't hand read at all.

[2+2 wannabe]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see much value in a river raise either.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

you're only behind KQ (unlikely given the turn check-raise)

isn't this an easy river raise?

[NLSoldier]

wtf /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Justin A]

I'd like to come in and say before this gets too far that Death Donkey completely screwed up the action in the hand.

Preflop is fine. Two limpers to him, he raises with QJo, I call, BB calls, limpers call.

Flop is J96 with two clubs. I check, BB bets, limper calls, someone folds, Donkey raises, I call, other two call.

Turn was an offsuit 8. Checked to Donkey who bets, I checkraise, others fold, Donkey calls.

River is offsuit T. I bet, Donkey calls.

Order of the turn and river cards doesn't matter all that much, but the flop action definitely matters.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

There are more ways he can have KQ than a set. I'm guessing he doesn't pay off 2 pair, maybe he would with JTs and he will with 87s. Still not enough to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Both of us are playing a bit loose / wacky but mostly serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think if their both playing a bit loose and wacky, hes def going to pay off with two pair, under normal conditions, maybe not

Edit: and his hand range will get bigger, especially when hes leg up

[/ QUOTE ]

Playing too loose and wacky is preflop only, and only rarely. This was one of those cases because I had a leg up and if I won I would get to kill it on the button. I am not playing loose and wacky postflop at all.

[toss]

Seems like you have JT or something. Would you call a river raise here with top two against DD? You probably put DD on at least a pair, but you know he'll only raise with a straight. I don't see you playing KQ this way so DD probably has the best hand. If he sees that then he can raise, but almost always will only get called by another Q. Hmmmm.

Raise/call?

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like you have JT or something. Would you call a river raise here with top two against DD? You probably put DD on at least a pair, but you know he'll only raise with a straight. I don't see you playing KQ this way so DD probably has the best hand. If he sees that then he can raise, but almost always will only get called by another Q. Hmmmm.

Raise/call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably play KQ this way, especially since the other two players in the hand were super loose and would call two cold on the turn with some very marginal hands.

[toss]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Seems like you have JT or something. Would you call a river raise here with top two against DD? You probably put DD on at least a pair, but you know he'll only raise with a straight. I don't see you playing KQ this way so DD probably has the best hand. If he sees that then he can raise, but almost always will only get called by another Q. Hmmmm.

Raise/call?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd probably play KQ this way, especially since the other two players in the hand were super loose and would call two cold on the turn with some very marginal hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmmm then I'm starting too see less value in raising the river now. This is tough for me.

[nfscreech]

Given this new info, and the fact you'd play KQ this way, I think he should call the river.

Since you did not lead on the flop, it's unlikely that Jason has a flush draw. People tend to check to the raiser, and you would rather trap the field for bets instead of facing everyone with 2 cold. Also, you cold call on the flop, which means you aren't trying to protect your hand. It seems like you're waiting for a safe turn card, or are on a draw. I think you have:

J9s
QTs
JJ
99
66
KQ

All these hands make sense from PF to river.

Given these card combos, you have KQ 50% of the time.
River call is fine.

Someone correct me if I missed something. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Shillx]

I have no idea what he has as no hand makes sense here. KQ is check/raising the flop since your PFR could be a wide range of hands. Against someone who is on AA-99/AK-AT/KQ-KJ I could see playing it this way, but when you start tossing hands like 88 and QT into the mix it becomes a clear flop check/raise IMO.

His turn play reeks of a big hand though since this turn will get checked through from time to time. I just don't understand what type of big hand will check/call the flop though.

QTs is the only hand that I can think of that might be able to pull off this move. /images/graemlins/confused.gif Way off again?

Brad

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Given this new info, and the fact you'd play KQ this way, I think he should call the river.

Since you did not lead on the flop, it's unlikely that Jason has a flush draw. People tend to check to the raiser, and you would rather trap the field for bets instead of facing everyone with 2 cold. Also, you cold call on the flop, which means you aren't trying to protect your hand. It seems like you're waiting for a safe turn card, or are on a draw. I think you have:

J9s
QTs
JJ
99
66
KQ

All these hands make sense from PF to river.

Given these card combos, you have KQ 50% of the time.
River call is fine.

Someone correct me if I missed something. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Open up my preflop hand range a bit. My preflop play doesn't necessarily have to make sense in this spot.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea what he has as no hand makes sense here. KQ is check/raising the flop since your PFR could be a wide range of hands. Against someone who is on AA-99/AK-AT/KQ-KJ I could see playing it this way, but when you start tossing hands like 88 and QT into the mix it becomes a clear flop check/raise IMO.

His turn play reeks of a big hand though since this turn will get checked through from time to time. I just don't understand what type of big hand will check/call the flop though.

QTs is the only hand that I can think of that might be able to pull off this move. /images/graemlins/confused.gif Way off again?

Brad

[/ QUOTE ]

I would only 3bet this flop with a very very strong hand, because there's almost no chance the other two opponents were going to fold for two more bets. Make sure you note that the flop action was actually BB bets, one caller, Donkey raises, I call, others call.

FWIW I think I played the flop and turn very well.

[NLSoldier]

you guys saying "given that he would play KQ this way its a call....blah blah blah" are wrong. First of all, he wouldnt play KQ this way,I know he said he did, he lied. 2nd of all, even if he would, his range is way bigger than KQ and hes probably not gonna fold to a river raise vs a friend.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
you guys saying "given that he would play KQ this way its a call....blah blah blah" are wrong. First of all, he wouldnt play KQ this way,I know he said he did, he lied. 2nd of all, even if he would, his range is way bigger than KQ and hes probably not gonna fold to a river raise vs a friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would play KQ like this.

The bolded point is important.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
you guys saying "given that he would play KQ this way its a call....blah blah blah" are wrong. First of all, he wouldnt play KQ this way,I know he said he did, he lied. 2nd of all, even if he would, his range is way bigger than KQ and hes probably not gonna fold to a river raise vs a friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would play KQ like this.

The bolded point is important.

[/ QUOTE ]

stop lying plz

[nfscreech]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, he wouldnt play KQ this way,I know he said he did, he lied.

[/ QUOTE ]

This doesn't make sense. If he says to include a hand combo into his hand range, we have to include it. I never thought KQ would make sense in my original post, but since Justin said it is possible, we have to believe him.

[ QUOTE ]
2nd of all, even if he would, his range is way bigger than KQ and hes probably not gonna fold to a river raise vs a friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

This does make sense. Tha hand range I gave was probably too small. If we include a few more hands that could make 2 pair, we should raise the river.

[donger]

[ QUOTE ]


Order of the turn and river cards doesn't matter all that much, but the flop action definitely matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? How does the order not matter?

If the board really did come down J96 - 8 - T, then i'm raising this river every time.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Order of the turn and river cards doesn't matter all that much, but the flop action definitely matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? How does the order not matter?

If the board really did come down J96 - 8 - T, then i'm raising this river every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

wow, yeah thats a good point. see guys, i told you he doesnt play KQ this way.

[DeathDonkey]

Wow yeah I screwed up the flop in the post as bad as I screwed up the river in the hand. But the ten was on the turn, I was open ended for sure. My river play was just awful, when I wrote the post and looked at it it was just painful. Glad NLSoldier and a few others were here to say so. Justin had 96s and yeah he played it good.

-DeathDonkey

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


Order of the turn and river cards doesn't matter all that much, but the flop action definitely matters.

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF? How does the order not matter?

If the board really did come down J96 - 8 - T, then i'm raising this river every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dammit you're right, sorry. It was T then 8.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow yeah I screwed up the flop in the post as bad as I screwed up the river in the hand. But the ten was on the turn, I was open ended for sure. My river play was just awful, when I wrote the post and looked at it it was just painful. Glad NLSoldier and a few others were here to say so. Justin had 96s and yeah he played it good.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm starting to be unsure about my river bet.

[DeathDonkey]

Well since I told you I was folding the river without improvement, yeah I think its close. But am I right to do so? I think I must call if I make 2 pair, the straight (raise maybe but obv not fold), or any board card pairs.

-DeathDonkey