American national anthem at WSOP main event???

[Masquerade]

I'm about two months too late with this post, but is it really true that the Main Event of the World Series of Poker was started with a singing of the American national anthem?

It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in. And how did non-US participants react?

I don't like to go to other countries and behave in a manner to cause offence so I probably would've quietly slipped outside. But how +EV and tilt-inducing would it be to simply ignore everyone standing up singing and mutter anti-American slogans?

[sirpupnyc]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event

[/ QUOTE ]

Valid point. The rendition in question wasn't especially appropriate for any venue. (Phil Gordon included the whole thing in that day's podcast, for some reason.) I seem to recall the singer being someone of significance to the poker community...probably volunteered and no one had the good sense to turn her down. I imagine most of the offense would have been cancelled by the "banging your head against a brick wall" effect (it feels so good when you stop).

[TonyS0pran0]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm about two months too late with this post, but is it really true that the Main Event of the World Series of Poker was started with a singing of the American national anthem?

It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in. And how did non-US participants react?

I don't like to go to other countries and behave in a manner to cause offence so I probably would've quietly slipped outside. But how +EV and tilt-inducing would it be to simply ignore everyone standing up singing and mutter anti-American slogans?

[/ QUOTE ]

How +EV would it be as you were carted off to the hospital after my big ass knocked all of your teeth out? You're in America, DEAL WITH IT!!! If I was in Canada I wouldn't care one bit standing up for a few minutes, whoopie.....

[TomCollins]

I don't remember this happening for some reason.

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in. And how did non-US participants react?


[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Baseball and basketball are both very international and they both have the national anthem. I don't recall anyone reacting in any way.

[sketchy1]

it was before the beginning of the final table.

[Masquerade]

[ QUOTE ]

How +EV would it be as you were carted off to the hospital after my big ass knocked all of your teeth out? You're in America, DEAL WITH IT!!! If I was in Canada I wouldn't care one bit standing up for a few minutes, whoopie.....

[/ QUOTE ]

See? You're on tilt already after just reading a post. When I'm prancing around outside the tournament hall, wearing my OBL mask, burning the Stars and Stripes, and waving placards condemning the US I'm going to have 95% of players desperate to bust me. It's probably a good way to get an insight of what it feels like to be Hellmuth.

Relax. I wasnt being serious. I like visiting America and I already said that I'm naturally a polite person who wouldnt dream of deliberately causing offence. BUT I still don't like the principle of a national anthem being sung [I didnt know it was some famous singer leading it] at a supposedly international event. If I'd visited a domestic sports (or any other) event and the national anthem had been sung I wouldnt have the slightest problem in standing up and mouthing some words anonymously. I'll even wave a little flag if you like.

I was just hypothetically musing that IF someone had the balls to refuse to go along with it at the WSOP they could possibly gain an edge.

[Masquerade]

[ QUOTE ]
it was before the beginning of the final table.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the clarification. I obviously wasnt concentrating when I read it. But that seems even stranger to me, especially as three of the final nine werent Americans.

[Seether]

cry more

[fnurt]

Why don't you call the Australian Open and ask them why they insist on offending all the international visitors with "Waltzing Matilda"?

If I was at an event in Botswana and they started off with the Botswana national anthem it would never occur to me to be offended. Because I'm in Botswana!

I really don't understand how someone can be offended by this. When in Rome, you may hear people singing in Italian.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

That would be the Open of Australia though.

This is supposedly the World Series of Poker, hence his point.

[Kaeser]

I think it's fairly common for any major event to start with the national anthem of the country in which it is being hosted whether or not the event is international.

[MyMindIsGoing]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's fairly common for any major event to start with the national anthem of the country in which it is being hosted whether or not the event is international.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes it is, but only in America.

[SoftcoreRevolt]

I really don't care either way, although people saying how they'd kick people's teeth in if they didn't stand for it is sort of scary.

[MyMindIsGoing]

[ QUOTE ]
How +EV would it be as you were carted off to the hospital after my big ass knocked all of your teeth out? You're in America, DEAL WITH IT!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem very american yes.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm about two months too late with this post, but is it really true that the Main Event of the World Series of Poker was started with a singing of the American national anthem?

It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in. And how did non-US participants react?

I don't like to go to other countries and behave in a manner to cause offence so I probably would've quietly slipped outside. But how +EV and tilt-inducing would it be to simply ignore everyone standing up singing and mutter anti-American slogans?

[/ QUOTE ]
who told you it was an international event?

[ QUOTE ]
That would be the Open of Australia though.

This is supposedly the World Series of Poker, hence his point.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm an Australian and I think it's innappropriate for Waltzing Matilda to be played, even if it is 'The Australian Open' and it's not our anthem.

I think it is HIGHLY INNAPPROPRIATE for any anthem to be played at a 'world' event. And comments like "DEAL WITH IT" and "kick your teeth in" just add to the reasons why Americans are viewed so poorly overseas.

How would you feel if Joe had demanded the Australian Anthem after his win. Probably the same way all the international players felt when the American Anthem was being played.

BTW. World Series of Baseball. What the...two countries hardly qualifies.

ASOP = American Series Of Poker

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
How would you feel if Joe had demanded the Australian Anthem after his win.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would have been perfectly fine with me.

Also, please keep in mind that Tony Soprano does not speak for all of us; he have the unforunate distinction that the dumb ones here tend to have the loudest voices.

Poker is a purely American game. Therefore, all poker tournament main events played all over the world should be preceded by the American National Anthem. Poker is just as American as apple pie, baseball, hamburgers, jazz and hotdogs.

[Rosie5]

[ QUOTE ]
It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in. And how did non-US participants react?

[/ QUOTE ]

the thing is here in America--Our mentality is usually "the world = America"

we're just that cool /images/graemlins/cool.gif I still don't see how the anthem is going to offend anyone, it's a part of American culture. Singing it before special events is typical American culture, if I went to any other country I'd try to do what they do within reason (i think standing for a song is within reason?) So I don't see what the big deal is

OH and the non US Participants were shocked and outraged

http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/344280/2/appalled_old_lady.jpg

[Sponger15SB]

Personally I'm shocked and outraged about this and I will be boycotting future WSOP events until this is changed.

In fact, I denouce my citizenship effective immediatly.

[Phill S]

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is a purely American game. Therefore, all poker tournament main events played all over the world should be preceded by the American National Anthem. Poker is just as American as apple pie, baseball, hamburgers, jazz and hotdogs.

[/ QUOTE ]

link: (http://www.pokertips.org/history/origins.php)
The exact origins of poker are unclear. It seems to have originated from a 16th century Persian card game known as As Nas. This game was played with 25 cards with 5 different suits. The game played in a similar fashion to modern 5 card stud and possessed similar poker hands rankings, such as three-of-a-kind. When Europeans began to play the game, they called it 'poque' or 'pochen.' 2 While poker's origins may lie in Europe and Persia, it truly developed in the United States.

-----

link: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_pie)
"As American as apple pie" is a common saying in the United States. However, the expression (its full form being "As American as motherhood and apple pie") is clearly metaphorical, rather than literally trying to claim origin, since both motherhood and apple pie predate the United States. It expresses the feeling that the concept "America" is not just geographical, but instead — along with motherhood and apple pie — is something wholesome.

-----
link: (http://whatscookingamerica.net/History/HamburgerHistory.htm)
In the late eighteenth century, the largest ports in Europe were in German. Sailors who had visited the ports of Hamburg, Germany and New York, brought the food and term "Hamburg Steak" into popular usage. To attract German sailors, eating stands along the New York city harbor offered "steak cooked in the Hamburg style."

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link: (http://www.foodvenue.com/content/tips/t030006_Origin_of_Hotdogs.asp)

The origin of hot dogs started all the way from the main ingredient – the sausage. There is some disagreement though as to whether the Austrians or the Germans invented the sausage. However, most people will credit the origin of sausages to the city of Frankfurt in Germany around the late 1400s. The frankfurter sausage was later nicknamed as “dachshund sausage” by a Frankfurt butcher who happened to own a dachshund (a dog with a pretty long body).

It is from Europe that the “dachshund” sausage was introduced to North America. Again it is not quite clear who actually was the first to introduce sausages with bread roll in the States. Whoever it was, the “dachshund” sausage roll became a very popular fast food in the early 1890s in Chicago where it spread to the rest of the country. People began to serve the “dachshund” sausage rolls in baseball parks and soon having hotdogs at the games became an American tradition.

-----

link (http://www.baseball1.com/bb-data/e-hist-1.html)
Most cultures have some sort of stick and ball game, cricket being the most well-known. While the exact origins of baseball are unknown, most historians agree that it is based on the English game of rounders.

-----

link: (http://www.redhotjazz.com/originsarticle.html)
Many Jazz writers have pointed out that the non-Jazz elements from which Jazz was formed, the Blues, Ragtime, Brass Band Music, Hymns and Spirituals, Minstrel music and work songs were ubiquitous in the United States and known in dozens of cities. Why then, they reason, should New Orleans be singled out as the sole birthplace of Jazz? These writers are overlooking one important factor that existed only in New Orleans, namely, the black Creole subculture.

The Creoles were free, French and Spanish speaking Blacks, originally from the West Indies, who lived first under Spanish then French rule in the Louisiana Territory. They became Americans as a result of the Louisiana Purchase of 1803 and Louisiana statehood in 1812. The Creoles rose to the highest levels of New Orleans society during the 19th century. They lived in the French section of the city east of Canal Street and became prominent in the economic and cultural life of the section.

The Creole musicians, many of whom were Conservatory trained in Paris, played at the Opera House and in chamber ensembles. Some led the best society bands in New Orleans. They prided themselves on their formal knowledge of European music, precise technique and soft delicate tone and had all of the social and cultural values that characterize the upper class.

The one thing these all had in common? American culture developed them into their modern forms, but they all had their history elsewhere in the world

Phill

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is a purely American game. Therefore, all poker tournament main events played all over the world should be preceded by the American National Anthem. Poker is just as American as apple pie, baseball, hamburgers, jazz and hotdogs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not sure if you are joking or not, seeing as everything on that list is everything but American in origin.

Playing the national anthem at the WSOP is highly inappropriate. If it was the US Poker Championship then fine, but the WSOP is a world event which is played on US soil due to tradition only.

Should every event at the Olympics be played with the Greek anthem?

[ QUOTE ]
While poker's origins may lie in Europe and Persia, it truly developed in the United States.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point.

[ QUOTE ]
"As American as apple pie" is a common saying in the United States. However, the expression (its full form being "As American as motherhood and apple pie") is clearly metaphorical, rather than literally trying to claim origin, since both motherhood and apple pie predate the United States. It expresses the feeling that the concept "America" is not just geographical, but instead — along with motherhood and apple pie — is something wholesome.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you think about it, wholesomeness really began in the United States. Before the Declaration of Independence, the world was still somewhat semi-barbaric with the British, the Dutch, the French,and the Spaniards using violence to spread their empires. The US was truly the first country that expanded peacefully from the first 13 colonies to Alaska and Hawaii.

[ QUOTE ]
To attract German sailors, eating stands along the New York city harbor offered "steak cooked in the Hamburg style."

[/ QUOTE ]

But it is not really a hamburger until it is placed between two pieces of bread which collectively are called a "hamburger bun". The hamburger as we know it is purely an American food item. The Germans just saw it as another version of steak, not a fastfood item.

[ QUOTE ]
Again it is not quite clear who actually was the first to introduce sausages with bread roll in the States. Whoever it was, the “dachshund” sausage roll became a very popular fast food in the early 1890s in Chicago where it spread to the rest of the country. People began to serve the “dachshund” sausage rolls in baseball parks and soon having hotdogs at the games became an American tradition.

[/ QUOTE ]

See my opinions about the hamburger. If you eat the hotdog without bread, it is just sausage. It has to be sandwiched between two breads for it to qualify as a hotdog which is an American invention.


[ QUOTE ]
Most cultures have some sort of stick and ball game, cricket being the most well-known. While the exact origins of baseball are unknown, most historians agree that it is based on the English game of rounders.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop trying to give credit to other countries what is rightfully American. I'm sure the cavemen played with sticks and balls but that does not make it baseball.


[ QUOTE ]
The one thing these all had in common? American culture developed them into their modern forms, but they all had their history elsewhere in the world

[/ QUOTE ]

Louis Armstrong invented jazz. And he was 100% American. In fact, they named the New Orleans airport after him.

[JihadOnTheRiver]

America. America. America F@#k Yeah.
Comin' again to save the motherf@#king day, yeah.
America, f@#k yeah!

Freedom is the only way, yeah.
Terrorist your game is through
'cause now you have to answer to America, f@#k yeah.
So lick my butt and suck on my balls.
America, f@#k yeah.

What ya gonna do when we come fo' you now?
It's the dream that we all share, it's the hope for tomorrow.
F@#k yeah.

McDonalds, Wal-mart, the Gap, baseball, NFL, rock and roll, the internet, slavery, F@#k yeah, f@#k yeah.

Starbucks, Disneyworld, porno, valium, Reebok, fake tits, sushi, Taco Bell, rodeo, Bed
Bath and Beyond.

Liberty, waxed lips, the Alamo, Band-Aids, Christmas, immigrants, Popeye, Democrats, Republicans, sportsmanship, books.

Sad F@#k Yeah
America, f@#k yeah.
Comin' again to save the motherf@#king day yeah.
America, f@#k yeah.
Freedom is the only way yeah.
Terrorist your game is through.
Now you have to answer to America, f@#k yeah.
America, f@#k yeah.





On another topic, kiss my as.s. Jihad on you.

[Jimbo]

[ QUOTE ]
If it was the US Poker Championship then fine, but the WSOP is a world event which is played on US soil due to tradition only.


[/ QUOTE ]

Lighten up, it is only named the WSOP. Few people believe the winner is the best player in the world, just the luckiest player in the world that particular week.

Wear earplugs if you don't like it or better yet go start your own world championship in Slovenia.

Holy crap Mushu. The stereotype of the average American being fat, stupid and ignorant usually won't hold true, but you sir strike them all I'm sure.

Apple pie was being baked in England long before North America was even known to exist. Empires are what spread civilisation to 'barbaric' places around the world (the US is a result of this).

The US spread west peacefully did it? My God this is one of the most stupid statements I've ever read.

Baseball is well known to have been derived from rounders.

Most things Americans consider to be American have came from other places in the world. It just so happens the US is about 2000 years behind most other Western nations (in Europe), otherwise it might have been a different story.

No doubt you think English was invented by an American, too?


Jimbo it not about whether or not the national anthem is insulting to people (it shouldn't be seeing as they'd be in America to hear it) but whether or not it's appropriate. I don't see how it possibly could be seeing as the WSOP hosts players from throughout the world. The WSOP is funded by players from throughout the world. What relevance has the anthem got for being played?

What song do they play at the world series of baseball?

OCW

[ QUOTE ]
Should every event at the Olympics be played with the Greek anthem?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, because Greece is not a SuperPower/WorldPower.

[gmrankin]

[ QUOTE ]

It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event


[/ QUOTE ]

WFT? If you come here to play, you should be mature enough to listen to "our" anthem. If I went to anouther country to play cards I would sit and listen, not get upset. I can't tell if you are joking about this or not. pisses me off either way. How do you block people on here?

[gmrankin]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event


[/ QUOTE ]

WFT? If you come here to play, you should be mature enough to listen to "our" anthem. If I went to anouther country to play cards I would sit and listen, not get upset. I can't tell if you are joking about this or not. pisses me off either way. How do you block people on here?

[/ QUOTE ]

found this:

Summary
1970 was the first year that the World Series of Poker was held. Unlike the WSOP events which followed it which are decided using a freeze-out tournament, the 1970 champion was decided by voting. Jack Binion invited the best seven poker players in America to his casino in Las Vegas to decide whom Americas best poker player was. Johnny Moss was voted the best in the world

So Poker, hambergers, baseball and whatever else might not be american, but the WSOP is.

[TomCollins]

Now I remember.

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
Poker is a purely American game. Therefore, all poker tournament main events played all over the world should be preceded by the American National Anthem. Poker is just as American as apple pie, baseball, hamburgers, jazz and hotdogs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hee. Good one.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in. And how did non-US participants react?


[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? Baseball and basketball are both very international and they both have the national anthem. I don't recall anyone reacting in any way.

[/ QUOTE ]Carlos Delgado does not participate in the seventh inning stretch "God Bless America" festivities. I'm sure he's not the only professional athlete that does not take part in such activites.

[Quicksilvre]

Very well--he didn't want to and found a way around.

[dlk9s]

Quick clarification:

The National Anthem was also sung before Flight 2 of Day 1 by Carolyn Gardner, the 1983 Women's Poker Champion. It was ear-splitting. Awful, awful, awful.

[Fallen Hero]

they're just self-centered enough to call they're national leagues and tournaments "world series" and the champions of their national championships "world champions".

So what should be troubling you is not the national anthem on a international event, the problem is that they call a national event "world series".

[idrinkcoors]

"wearing my OBL mask, burning the Stars and Stripes"

Someone does that Masquarde, and the phrase, "bad beat" will take on a whole new meaning.

+EV because American players would tilt? There would be no +EV if the offender were not physically able to play.

[unfrgvn]

Line of the day, LMAO.
[ QUOTE ]

Someone does that Masquarde, and the phrase, "bad beat" will take on a whole new meaning.


[/ QUOTE ]

To the OP, you remind me of all the politically correct punks in this country. God forbid we show intolerance by playing our National Anthem in our country. Why don't you show a little tolerance and respect the customs of the host country?

[ChrisAJ]

Should anthems not be played at the Olympics? Are they too insulting for the non-winners of events, or the countless fans not from the non-losing country?

[schwza]

[ QUOTE ]
The US was truly the first country that expanded peacefully from the first 13 colonies to Alaska and Hawaii.

[/ QUOTE ]

it was manifest destiny and to hell with the gajillion brown people we had to kill on the way.

[highlife]

[ QUOTE ]
they're just self-centered enough to call they're national leagues and tournaments "world series" and the champions of their national championships "world champions".

So what should be troubling you is not the national anthem on a international event, the problem is that they call a national event "world series".

[/ QUOTE ]

please tell me where the event should be held? When your country decides to hold the biggest poker tournament in the WORLD you can call it whatever you like. I assume you will not be playing TEXAS holdem or OMAHA.

[mhcmarty]

This is an American event.

The event was originated in America, held in Amercia, hosted and ran be an American company under the laws governed by American state and federal regulations.

This is just as an Amercian event as the MLB World Series and the NFL Superbowl.

[billyb]

how about you just don't sing or stand up.

this is america and we will play our national anthem if we please.

by your line of thinking since probably half the Baseball players are Not from the U.S. Maybe we shouldn't play it at baseball games.

don't like it move to france.

peace
billyb
Retired Usaf

[ QUOTE ]
This is an American event.

The event was originated in America, held in Amercia, hosted and ran be an American company under the laws governed by American state and federal regulations.

This is just as an Amercian event as the MLB World Series and the NFL Superbowl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then why not call it the Open American Championship of Poker? When you put a godawful pretentious title on it, you should accept that some think the US national anthem is a bit too much.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]

The US was truly the first country that expanded peacefully from the first 13 colonies to Alaska and Hawaii.


[/ QUOTE ]

WHAT? What sort of revisionist history are you living in?

And baseball IS American, though certainly derived from Rounders. An American took Rounders, developed his own rules and formed a new sport. Basketball would have been a better analogy, though I think the sports founder was actually Canadian.

[fnurt]

This thread wouldn't even exist if any country other than America was involved. You don't hear many accusations of arrogance regarding the Monte Carlo World Backgammon Championships, for example. If I was in some other country and they played their national anthem I wouldn't think anything of it, and I certainly wouldn't feel like my tender American ears were being offended. I would probably think it was pretty cool.

One thing I could explain to my fellow Americans that might shed a little light is that America and Europe have much different standards concerning patriotism and nationalism. In part this is due to some bad stuff from the last century that was attributable to an excess of German nationalism.

You could drive through any neighborhood in the US and you'd see plenty of US flags flying and the like; it's normal. But in Europe, many people consider it crass to show overt nationalism, and waving around a big flag might be considered inappropriate. We would think they are a little weird; they would think we are a little weird. But maybe this explains in part why some of our friends from overseas seem to be taking the playing of a national anthem a little too seriously.

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread wouldn't even exist if any country other than America was involved. You don't hear many accusations of arrogance regarding the Monte Carlo World Backgammon Championships, for example. If I was in some other country and they played their national anthem I wouldn't think anything of it, and I certainly wouldn't feel like my tender American ears were being offended. I would probably think it was pretty cool.

One thing I could explain to my fellow Americans that might shed a little light is that America and Europe have much different standards concerning patriotism and nationalism. In part this is due to some bad stuff from the last century that was attributable to an excess of German nationalism.

You could drive through any neighborhood in the US and you'd see plenty of US flags flying and the like; it's normal. But in Europe, many people consider it crass to show overt nationalism, and waving around a big flag might be considered inappropriate. We would think they are a little weird; they would think we are a little weird. But maybe this explains in part why some of our friends from overseas seem to be taking the playing of a national anthem a little too seriously.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, you. This is not a thread to be concise or reasonable. Outta the pool!

[Shaun]

[ QUOTE ]

BTW. World Series of Baseball. What the...two countries hardly qualifies.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best baseball teams in the world are in the Major Leagues. Thus the winner of the World Series is the best team in the world.

[Shaun]

[ QUOTE ]

link: (http://www.redhotjazz.com/originsarticle.html)
Many Jazz writers have pointed out that the non-Jazz elements from which Jazz was formed, the Blues, Ragtime, Brass Band Music, Hymns and Spirituals, Minstrel music and work songs were ubiquitous in the United States and known in dozens of cities. Why then, they reason, should New Orleans be singled out as the sole birthplace of Jazz? These writers are overlooking one important factor that existed only in New Orleans, namely, the black Creole subculture.

The Creoles were free, French and Spanish speaking Blacks, originally from the West Indies, who lived first under Spanish then French rule in the Louisiana Territory. They became Americans as a result of the Louisiana Purchase of 1803 and Louisiana statehood in 1812. The Creoles rose to the highest levels of New Orleans society during the 19th century. They lived in the French section of the city east of Canal Street and became prominent in the economic and cultural life of the section.

The Creole musicians, many of whom were Conservatory trained in Paris, played at the Opera House and in chamber ensembles. Some led the best society bands in New Orleans. They prided themselves on their formal knowledge of European music, precise technique and soft delicate tone and had all of the social and cultural values that characterize the upper class.

The one thing these all had in common? American culture developed them into their modern forms, but they all had their history elsewhere in the world

Phill

[/ QUOTE ]

Jazz is American Buddy. And it's not even close. Of course it has influences that originated elsewhere. Name something on Earth that doesn't.

Poker, in its popular forms, is American. No one asked if they played cards in Persia with a 25 card deck once. Poker, you know, 52 cards, betting rounds, draw, Hold-em, Omaha, Stud, is American.

Should there be a national anthem at the world series of poker? Who cares!

[Shaun]

[ QUOTE ]
they're just self-centered enough to call they're national leagues and tournaments "world series" and the champions of their national championships "world champions".

So what should be troubling you is not the national anthem on a international event, the problem is that they call a national event "world series".

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you could simply realize that, the NBA champions, for example, are the best club basketball team in the world by far, and thus the WORLD CHAMPIONS. You could just realize, for example, that the Major league baseball champs are the best club team in the world by far, and thus, WORLD CHAMPIONS.

[mhcmarty]

"godawful pretentious title" is a little over the top. I'm guessing the title "WSOP" comes from MLB World Series which dates back over 100 years to 1903. The WSOP started in 1970 as an invite only. This article from Card Player will give you a little more insight. I don't think the originators of either World Series were trying to offending any one. There maybe plenty to dislike about America and Americans, but on this subject it's pretty easy to defend.

http://www.cardplayer.com/cpcollege/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=38

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm guessing the title "WSOP" comes from MLB World Series which dates back over 100 years to 1903.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right--for a while, the Super Bowl of Poker was the number two tournament on the circuit.

[ QUOTE ]

The best baseball teams in the world are in the Major Leagues. Thus the winner of the World Series is the best team in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

By that logic we could (at least in periods) call the Norwegian cross-country skiing championship the "World Series of Skiing."
We don't, because that would be stupid.

[SirKraggen]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Svar på:</font><hr />
Or you could simply realize that, the NBA champions, for example, are the best club basketball team in the world by far, and thus the WORLD CHAMPIONS. You could just realize, for example, that the Major league baseball champs are the best club team in the world by far, and thus, WORLD CHAMPIONS.

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not going to argue with you - MLB and NBA are the strongest leagues in their sports. But still, the WS winner could lose a 7-game series to the winner of the Japan league, although the MLB team would probably be the favourites.

I think playing the host nations anthem at the WSOP is perfectly fine. As would playing the anthem of the country of the winner (Australia this year) at the prize giving ceremony, for example (Don't know if they did that?)

This reminds me of a John Cleese joke (and I include it here because I think it's funny, not to mock anyone) - around the time of the Clinton/Lewinsky debacle:

There are three reasons it's better to be British than American:

1) They speak English
2) When they host the World Championships, they invite other countries
3) When you visit the head of state, you only have to go down on one knee.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ QUOTE ]
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I'm about two months too late with this post, but is it really true that the Main Event of the World Series of Poker was started with a singing of the American national anthem?

It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in. And how did non-US participants react?

I don't like to go to other countries and behave in a manner to cause offence so I probably would've quietly slipped outside. But how +EV and tilt-inducing would it be to simply ignore everyone standing up singing and mutter anti-American slogans?

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How +EV would it be as you were carted off to the hospital after my big ass knocked all of your teeth out? You're in America, DEAL WITH IT!!! If I was in Canada I wouldn't care one bit standing up for a few minutes, whoopie.....

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I agree whole heartedly! Everyone is talking about how Poker deserves to be treated more like other events etc. Traditionally during sporting events (I am not going to debate whether poker is a sport) the National Anthem of the host country is sung.

Unless they have recently moved Las Vegas to another country and not informed me, it is held in the USA, so if and I say if a National Anthem is going to be sung then is should be ours and not say Australia's for Joe Hachem.

What's the big deal? If you go to say Paris for the WPT and they want to sing the French National Anthem, I certainly would not be offended.

To a European watching American patriotism is like watching your parents kiss. I'm sure many are physically sick.

Just because an event is at X, doesn't mean the X national anthem should be played. Honestly it would be like Greece playing their national anthem before every event at the olympics. I can assure you they did not. It is crass, it is unnecessary, it's the American way.

[mhcmarty]

You could and nobody would care!

[mhcmarty]

If I were in a foreign country at any event, I would consider myself a guest and act accordingly.

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To a European watching American patriotism is like watching your parents kiss. I'm sure many are physically sick.

Just because an event is at X, doesn't mean the X national anthem should be played. Honestly it would be like Greece playing their national anthem before every event at the olympics. I can assure you they did not. It is crass, it is unnecessary, it's the American way.

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So by your example, does this mean that we should stop singing the National Anthem at Baseball games, because some French, or Indonesian, or Japanese people attending the game might be offended?

If I am in another country and I am at an event and they play their National Anthem, not only will I NOT be offended, I will respect them, their country and their Anthem.

I have had the good fortune in the past to travel to other countries, including Japan, and China and I have tried very hard when in their countries to change some of my ways to conform to their country out of a sense of respect.

I don't see any problem whatsoever with our country playing our National Anthem in our country.

I will add that I am a Naturalized Citizen on the US and was not born here but am very proud to call myself an American.

[Quicksilvre]

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It is crass, it is unnecessary, it's the American way.

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I must disagree. It's simply a tradition in the US, one ingrained enough that, if the Greeks had played their national anthem before every event, no American would be offended. It's not nationalistic propaganda (which some people seem to think it is), it's just standard operating procedure.

[ddss6_99]

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It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in.

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So I suppose the national anthem should not be sung before the World Series either. Cause you know, it has the word "world" in it.

[Adjective]

Who cares what national anthem they sing? I'm amazed people care so much about the dumbest things, who cares?

[Masquerade]

I didnt realise this post would generate so much hot air.

First of all let me repeat that I am not in any way "offended" by Americans playing the National Anthem in America. For anyone to be offended by this would be truly insane.

Secondly all the people citing baseball/basketball matches are completely missing the point. Those matches have TWO participants (teams) both American. Regardless of where the players are from, or the audience are from, playing the National Anthem is entirely logical.

The World Series of Poker has 5000 *participants* from 50 (I'm guessing) different countries. You can't play 50 different National Anthems. When the US is playing host to a world championship event with *participants* from 50 different countries it seems strange to have the National Anthem at that venue.

Many people have somehow decided that this is about causing offence/not causing offence to people. It isnt. Noone is offended by Americans playing their National Anthem. We know you love doing it all the time, probably more than any other country.

I'm just questioning whether an international poker tourney with participants from dozens of foreign countries is the venue to do it.

And to all the people who are posting "If I went to country X and they played their national anthem I wouldnt be offended", neither would I. Neither would anyone else. So you can stop.

[Quicksilvre]

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I'm just questioning whether an international poker tourney with participants from dozens of foreign countries is the venue to do it.

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Eh. I think it's okay, but I get the mixed reactions. I don't have a problem with it, but I do think it takes up unnecessary time, for a ritual not many folks pay attention to.

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And to all the people who are posting "If I went to country X and they played their national anthem I wouldnt be offended", neither would I. Neither would anyone else. So you can stop.

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I think it's a legitimate point, but I'll stop.

[dogsballs]

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Quick clarification:

The National Anthem was also sung before Flight 2 of Day 1 by Carolyn Gardner, the 1983 Women's Poker Champion. It was ear-splitting. Awful, awful, awful.

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Yea, that was truly painful to hear.

[Shaun]

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The best baseball teams in the world are in the Major Leagues. Thus the winner of the World Series is the best team in the world.

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By that logic we could (at least in periods) call the Norwegian cross-country skiing championship the "World Series of Skiing."
We don't, because that would be stupid.

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And because no one gives a rats a** what you call the cross-country skiing champions.

[britspin]

In the Uk most "national" sporting events involve the playing of both teams anthems. World championships generally don't, but I don't see any harm in playing the anthem of the host country.

After all it's polite of guests to fit in with traditions of hosts - and playing patriotic music before sporting occassions is a pretty big part of that- and it's correct to show respect to the Anthem too- even if you're foreign.

What offends me is the fact that they hold the World Series in a backward country where you get taxed on poker winnings and the biggest growth form of the game is illegal. Move the World Series to a country with less punitive gambling tax and laws, play whatever songs you want and keep your winnings.

[betgo]

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Well, if you think about it, wholesomeness really began in the United States. Before the Declaration of Independence, the world was still somewhat semi-barbaric with the British, the Dutch, the French,and the Spaniards using violence to spread their empires. The US was truly the first country that expanded peacefully from the first 13 colonies to Alaska and Hawaii.


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I assume this includes the peaceful declarations of war against Britain in 1812, Mexico in 1846, and Spain in 1898. Also numerous peaceful Indian wars, violations of treaties, and massacres of villages.

[Quicksilvre]

To the best of my knowledge, this might be the first time this has been brought up. Who knows, maybe something'll change after this issue has been out in the air for a while. I think having the national anthem is fine, but obviously some folks disagree.

That concludes my futile attempt to bring civility to the thread. You may resume flaming.

[fnurt]

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In the Uk most "national" sporting events involve the playing of both teams anthems. World championships generally don't, but I don't see any harm in playing the anthem of the host country.

After all it's polite of guests to fit in with traditions of hosts - and playing patriotic music before sporting occassions is a pretty big part of that- and it's correct to show respect to the Anthem too- even if you're foreign.

What offends me is the fact that they hold the World Series in a backward country where you get taxed on poker winnings and the biggest growth form of the game is illegal. Move the World Series to a country with less punitive gambling tax and laws, play whatever songs you want and keep your winnings.

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This is brilliant. Only "backwards" countries tax gambling income, more "advanced" countries would obviously pay their bills by taxing teachers and doctors and productive activity.

As a gambler, of course I would prefer to pay less in taxes, but it's silly to suggest that it's good public policy or that it makes a country more "advanced" to give gamblers a special exemption from taxes.

[MicroBob]

(didn't read the whole thread)

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Lighten up, it is only named the WSOP. Few people believe the winner is the best player in the world, just the luckiest player in the world that particular week.

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Exactly.
It's just a freaking title.

It's not like the United States Poker Championships are for U.S. citizens only.


Instead of calling it the WSOP maybe it could be called "Official Milky-Way Galaxy Championships" or anything else.

They could call it "The Harrah's Poker Spectacular".

It just happens to be called the 'World' Series because it's a catchy name that they decided to borrow from baseball (there once was a Super Bowl of poker too I believe).


It takes place in the U.S. therefore playing the American national anthem is more appropriate then any other anthem regardless of the number of non-Americans at the final-table.

If I go to a Yankees vs. Red Sox game should we sit through the Canadian, Dominican and Japanese anthems just because both teams have representatives from those countries?
Should we ask around in the stands to see if any of the fans want their country's anthem to be played?


There isn't anything inherently offensive about playing the American national anthem for an event IN America.


However, it is pretty stupid to play any national anthem at all imo (not offensive...just stupid).
Have they always done this?

[britspin]

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In the Uk most "national" sporting events involve the playing of both teams anthems. World championships generally don't, but I don't see any harm in playing the anthem of the host country.

After all it's polite of guests to fit in with traditions of hosts - and playing patriotic music before sporting occassions is a pretty big part of that- and it's correct to show respect to the Anthem too- even if you're foreign.

What offends me is the fact that they hold the World Series in a backward country where you get taxed on poker winnings and the biggest growth form of the game is illegal. Move the World Series to a country with less punitive gambling tax and laws, play whatever songs you want and keep your winnings.

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This is brilliant. Only "backwards" countries tax gambling income, more "advanced" countries would obviously pay their bills by taxing teachers and doctors and productive activity.

As a gambler, of course I would prefer to pay less in taxes, but it's silly to suggest that it's good public policy or that it makes a country more "advanced" to give gamblers a special exemption from taxes.

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Was just trying to have a poke at the rah-rah USA No 1 tone of some of the responses- I certainly don't think it's nesc poor public policy to tax gambling- though I do think that it's odd to hold the world series in a country that does so. Personally I prefer the policy that taxes the profits of gambling companies, not the winnings of players, but that's a whole other debate..

[mackthefork]

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Baseball and basketball

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Do me a favour.

Mack

[mackthefork]

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Well, if you think about it, wholesomeness really began in the United States. Before the Declaration of Independence, the world was still somewhat semi-barbaric with the British, the Dutch, the French,and the Spaniards using violence to spread their empires. The US was truly the first country that expanded peacefully from the first 13 colonies to Alaska and Hawaii.


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You must be really trying hard, this is hilarious.

Mack

[mackthefork]

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Stop trying to give credit to other countries what is rightfully American. I'm sure the cavemen played with sticks and balls but that does not make it baseball.


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It's British you are wrong, all you did is change the rules a little. Same goes for American Football, rugby with a suit of armour.

Mack

[mackthefork]

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WFT? If you come here to play, you should be mature enough to listen to "our" anthem. If I went to anouther country to play cards I would sit and listen, not get upset. I can't tell if you are joking about this or not. pisses me off either way. How do you block people on here?

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It wouldn't bother me personally, but it is a stupid arrogant thing to do, and no you wouldn't have to sit through any one elses anthem at a poker tournament because they wouldn't be dumb enough to play it.

Mack

[mackthefork]

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So by your example, does this mean that we should stop singing the National Anthem at Baseball games, because some French, or Indonesian, or Japanese people attending the game might be offended?

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Not because of any of those things, the reason is there are two US teams playing, no need for an anthem.

If England played France at football in London, then we would play both anthems, it makes sense, all or none.

Mack

[Zetack]

Personally I hate our tradition of playing the National Anthem before sporting events (although I like it for medal presentation ceremony's at the Olympics). I just think it deserves more reverence than that.

And playing it before a Poker Tournament just seems weirdly out of place.

--Zetack

[Philuva]

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However, it is pretty stupid to play any national anthem at all imo (not offensive...just stupid).
Have they always done this?

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It started after WWII. I agree that it is one of the stupidest traditions. It always amazes me how people get so fired up over it too.

Why do it for sporting events? Should companies play it before work begins? Should restaurants play before serving meals? I understand it at international sporting events, but it just makes no sense for national and collegiate sports, but whatever.

I am sure people in 40 years will wonder why God Bless America is played during the 7th inning stretch at baseball games too.

The World Series of Poker was created by Benny Binion. At the time the only participants were Americans, I doubt Benny considered it an international event. He was just a showman and smart businessman. He used the term "World Series" to make the tournament sound important and prestigious, not due to it being an international event.
FWIW, I do think siging the anthem in a casino is a bit extraneous. It reminds me of when they telecast horse races in the simulcast area of a bar and all the drunk horse players get up when the anthem is played, it always seemed funny to me.

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I don't like to go to other countries and behave in a manner to cause offence so I probably would've quietly slipped outside. But how +EV and tilt-inducing would it be to simply ignore everyone standing up singing and mutter anti-American slogans?

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Let's all join hands and share a Coca Cola. Or do you have a problem with that because it is an American product?

Would you have felt better if the Horseshoe flew the UN flag? Probably. To take "offence" with a host country playing their anthem is either a joke or an indication of a mental condition. Deal with it!

[cogger]

Here Here!! -- well said.

And what about the WORLD Series of Baseball?? What is this liberals view on that?

[Leaky Eye]

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It seems incredibly inappropriate for a supposedly international event (World != America) whatever country it's held in. And how did non-US participants react?

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Whatever you stupid pinko.

[valenzuela]

I only read the first 6 posts but isnt it funny that the event wasnt even won by an american...

[Hotel Detect]

I could care less whether the anthem was played or not, most Americans view it as standard before major competitions. What I find hilarious is the pathetic obsession Europeans have with our country. The WSOP is named the WSOP for no other reason than that it was named after the WSOBaseball. There is no nazi-esque nationalistic intention here. Also the WSOP is not the G8 summitt, its a ***King poker tournament. Americans are way less nationalistic than you think. I personally would've like to hear the Australian anthem when Hachem won.

To get hung up on this is simply juvenile and ridiculous, will you ever stop complaining about your invented oppression under the US superpower? Quit whining and move on, you sound like a bunch of pussies - not eloquent but no other way to describe it.

[NCAces]

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though I do think that it's odd to hold the world series in a country that does so.

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Why is that odd? Why would a US company, running a tournament that started in the US, where most players participating are from the US, when it has traditionally been held in the US, hold it anywhere else?


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Personally I prefer the policy that taxes the profits of gambling companies, not the winnings of players, but that's a whole other debate..

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Then you don't understand basic concepts of taxation. Corporations don't pay taxes ... those who purchase the services or goods of the corporation pay the taxes. In your example, if the US exempted gambling winnings from taxation, and counter-balanced the loss of revenue by raising the taxes on the corporations that run the gambling, where do you think they would get the extra money? Do you think they would say, "oh, no big deal ... they are now taxing an additional 20% ... we don't mind a 20% reduction in our proftits." No, the corporations would say, no problem, raise the rakes, lower the payouts. Either way, in the end the gamblers would pay the taxes, not the corporations.

NCAces

[beta1607]

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you should accept that some think the US national anthem is a bit too much.

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You should accept that the organizers of this even do not think it is a bit too much and if that offends you then simply do not participate in the WSOP.

[unfrgvn]

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Stop trying to give credit to other countries what is rightfully American. I'm sure the cavemen played with sticks and balls but that does not make it baseball.


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It's British you are wrong, all you did is change the rules a little. Same goes for American Football, rugby with a suit of armour.

Mack

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose instead of playing the anthem we could be really advanced like our British cousins and have a riot before or during our sporting matches:

http://www.englischservice.de/hooligans3.html

[Quicksilvre]

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What I find hilarious is the pathetic obsession Europeans have with our country.

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What I find funny is the passion of most of these posters. It's just a bloody song, for chissakes. It's bringing out the worst in both the Americans and the Europeans here.

[betgo]

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To get hung up on this is simply juvenile and ridiculous, will you ever stop complaining about your invented oppression under the US superpower?

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Some people think we are imperialistic due to Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., so they blow something like this out of proportion.

[sbu97]

It isn't "just a bloody song" to many, and I understand the anger being expressed on this page. I find it interesting that so many of the posters who I assume are Americans have stated they wouldn't even consider being disrespectful of another countries anthem at a foreign event, yet others, who I assume are not Americans, find the anthem disrespectful in some way. There is an old saying that says "Europeans think Americans are only good for buying their products and jumping into foxholes." After reading this post and watching the BBC for many years, I think there is a lot of truth to that statement.