6-max Playalong Time [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

scotty34

09-17-2005, 08:01 PM

I found this hand really interesting while playing it because I just felt there were so many ways it could have been done. I still can't decide which option would have been optimal, so let's all give this a shot and see what we come up with.

UTG is pretty loose and somewhat aggressive 48/12
CO is a pretty solidly playing TAG 25/10
Button plays similar to CO
SB is pretty similar to UTG
BB is quite loose and very passive, he plays very poorly

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold Hero...?

Redd

09-17-2005, 08:03 PM

Open raise bay-beeee

Vote4Pedro

09-17-2005, 08:05 PM

Limping sucks...

Raise or fold; I /images/graemlins/heart.gif raise

scotty34

09-17-2005, 08:13 PM

OK, well preflop is easy and obvious for the most part, but hey, if I'm gonna do a playalong, I'm going the whole 9 yards.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero...?

So our solidly playing TAG 3-bets us which is never a good sign. Our range of hands to put him on here probably consists of 99+, ATs+, AJo+, and KQs.
Our donk of a BB calls, and we can probably put him on any two cards over 10, any A, any suited K, K7o+, Q5s+, Q8o+, and any PP.

milesdyson

09-17-2005, 08:15 PM

easy raise, now just call the 3-bet.

Redd

09-17-2005, 08:16 PM

Call bay-beeeee. You're a dog at this point.

TheKentock

09-17-2005, 08:19 PM

I don't play 6-max, but it doesn't seem like we've had any difficult decisions so far. Raise, call the 3-bet, the real decision comes on the flop.

scotty34

09-17-2005, 08:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
easy raise, now just call the 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Done and done. As I said, PF is easy, now we can start to get into it. I'll give these more time for more responses.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero?

What is my action here, and what is the goal I am hoping to accomplish?

milesdyson

09-17-2005, 08:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play 6-max, but it doesn't seem like we've had any difficult decisions so far. Raise, call the 3-bet, the real decision comes on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
i like this.

your flop options:

1. bet.
2. check raise.
3. check call.

99+, ATs+, AJo+, and KQs.
AA (6), KK (6), QQ (6), JJ (6), TT (3), 99 (6), and ATs (3) all beat us. that's 36 hands.
AK (16), AQ (16), AJ (16), and KQs (4) we are good. that's 52 hands.

he will always bet when you check. with how many of these losing hands do you suppose he raises our flop bet? we would really like to bet and have him raise a worse hand here to get BB out. he probably wants BB out, too, so i think he will raise the flop with quite a few of these worse hands. i would bet. my second choice is check call planning to donk the turn. my last choice would be check raising since i don't like being tied to betting the turn (and keeping BB in the hand).

bozlax

09-17-2005, 08:27 PM

Hmmm. Two-suited, no Broadways, but 2 overcards to your pair, and Mr. Donktastic checks to you...

Based on your reads I think there's a pretty good chance that you were behind to CO preflop, and you're behind to BB, now, and BB is looking to c/r with his AT/JT/Q8s/somesuch. I'd check/fold, most likely, but what the hell do I know? (Actually, that's not completely true...I do know that I don't want to pay 2 bets to see the turn!)

numeri

09-17-2005, 08:28 PM

[blind post]

I'm still new to 6-max, so I'll just throw out that this would be a raise for me. I'm interested to see what other thoughts are.

scotty34

09-17-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't play 6-max, but it doesn't seem like we've had any difficult decisions so far. Raise, call the 3-bet, the real decision comes on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
i like this.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Maybe you should switch to 6m /images/graemlins/wink.gif

TheKentock

09-17-2005, 08:32 PM

Ok, so you can check or bet.

If you check, CO is going to definitely bet. A check from him would make me suspect a trap. So we assume he is betting here if you check. So you put him on 99+, ATs+, AJo+, and KQs. If he bets the flop and you call and don't improve, what can you do on the turn? I think he has a large range of hands here that didn't hit (AJ s&o, AQ s&o AK s&o and KQs), certainly enough to bet him here. If he raises, fold.

So betting looks pretty good to me here. If he just calls, pray for another low card to hit the turn, which is where I see him dropping his overcards.

The problem here is the BB, who could easily call with a flush draw, overs, or a weak pair of 10s or 8s. I think if you get 2 callers on your bet, you have a hard turn.

I'm not giving a concrete answer, or even trying to, I'm just running through the options in my head.

scotty34

09-17-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm. Two-suited, no Broadways, but 2 overcards to your pair, and Mr. Donktastic checks to you...

Based on your reads I think there's a pretty good chance that you were behind to CO preflop, and you're behind to BB, now, and BB is looking to c/r with his AT/JT/Q8s/somesuch. I'd check/fold, most likely, but what the hell do I know? (Actually, that's not completely true...I do know that I don't want to pay 2 bets to see the turn!)

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the range of hands and reads I had listed for BB on that flop, what gives you reason to think he is ahead and is going to C/R now?

TheKentock

09-17-2005, 08:36 PM

Given the read, I would see BB betting out here with a hand rather than the c/r. Loose passive folks rarely c/r, and if he does, he may have you over the barrel with a higher set. I would be more concerned with him having a weak hand that beats you, like a weak 10 or 8.

Redd

09-17-2005, 08:36 PM

My concern with betting here is that CO sounds like the type of player where 90% of the time, a raise would mean that we're beat and we're protecting a second best hand.

numeri

09-17-2005, 08:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (9.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero?

[/ QUOTE ]
Based on our previous hand range for CO, we can get a rough idea of our standing:

Behind:
99, JJ-AA = 6 ways each
TT = 3 ways
ATs = 3 ways
total = 36 hands

Ahead:
AJs/o+ = 16 ways each
KQs = 4 ways
total = 52 hands

So if this is anywhere near correct, we should be ahead of CO more than we're behind. (I'm prone to making errors on this board, though - in logic and math - so who knows.)

With that in mind, I still don't know what to do. I think I check/call CO's inevitable bet, and bet any turn card lower than a J.

scotty34

09-17-2005, 08:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
easy raise, now just call the 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Done and done. As I said, PF is easy, now we can start to get into it. I'll give these more time for more responses.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero?

What is my action here, and what is the goal I am hoping to accomplish?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is something more to think about. If you are the CO in this hand, you are auto-betting when checked to, which is pretty obvious.

Facing a donkbet however, as the CO, what is your plan with the different cards you might have at this point? I would expect he would raise with an overpair or AT pretty much automatically. With overcards, a flush draw, overcards and a BDFD what would your action be? You would probably assume you are behind Hero at this point. Do you want to call and draw, do you want to raise to clean up outs/protect your hand?

The answer to this should really effect your decision as Hero.

bozlax

09-17-2005, 08:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Given the range of hands and reads I had listed for BB on that flop, what gives you reason to think he is ahead and is going to C/R now?

[/ QUOTE ]

My MUBS is better than your FPS. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Actually, I don't really believe that. My point was that if you were HU with the CO I think you'd be in a better position to bet this, and fold to a raise from CO. If CO is good, he knows that BB is bad, and he maybe knows that you know that BB is bad, which leaves you trapped between a guy who may well have better cards than you do or at least has 6 outs against you (and you don't know which a raise from him is) and a guy who you have no idea what he's holding but two cards that beat you and are within his preflop calling range are on the board.

By a similar token, however, CO may just be putting a play on you, knowing what you know about BB and thinking that you were raising light, figuring that at worst he's getting dead money from one of you.

This looks like a situation where you wind up spending a lot of bets to learn you had 3rd-best hand. That's all.

Redd

09-17-2005, 08:51 PM

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

25,887,204 games 14.200 secs 1,823,042 games/sec

Board: 8h Td 3d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 30.7060 % [ 00.31 00.00 ] { 7s7d }
Hand 2: 42.0202 % [ 00.42 00.00 ] { AA-99, AKs-ATs, KQs, AKo-AJo }
Hand 3: 27.2738 % [ 00.27 00.00 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q5s, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-KTo, QJo-Q8o, JTo }

---

We're ahead enough to justify a call but not a bet (we're only 4% ahead of mr. calltacular at this point). I check, planning to call one but not two. I'm hoping to pull a donklead-fold on the turn, but that'll depend on what happens and we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

bozlax

09-17-2005, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here is something more to think about. If you are the CO in this hand, you are auto-betting when checked to, which is pretty obvious.

Facing a donkbet however, as the CO, what is your plan with the different cards you might have at this point? I would expect he would raise with an overpair or AT pretty much automatically. With overcards, a flush draw, overcards and a BDFD what would your action be? You would probably assume you are behind Hero at this point. Do you want to call and draw, do you want to raise to clean up outs/protect your hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

This neatly encapsulates part of my problem with this hand. You said that CO is a solid TAG...but is that "good" (read: possibly tricky) solid or "ABC" solid?

However, I suspect that either of these TAGs is going to raise a bet on this flop, or bet if checked to...neither action providing our hapless Hero with any information.

milesdyson

09-17-2005, 08:58 PM

well you're ahead of 52 of his hands and behind 36.

the pot is already ~10 sb and there are 16 more hands that you beat than you lose to.

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK (3)
A K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3)

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif(1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ (3)
A Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3)

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ (3)

K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1)

here are 22 hands i say he raises very often on this board. now just to make this 50/50 we only need to say he raises 14 out of the remaining 30 on average. since we also have the 10 bet overlay from the pot, i don't think we're in a terribly bad spot when we are raised on the flop.

okay i'm done with the thread for a while tonight. must go eat ribs.

Redd

09-17-2005, 09:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he probably wants BB out, too, so i think he will raise the flop with quite a few of these worse hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you were the Villain, would you raise AK or AQ here? The calling station has already called two cold once in this hand.

edit: I think that AK/AQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif are obvious raises, but even though they're losing we're still an equity dog to them at this point.

scotty34

09-17-2005, 09:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]

However, I suspect that either of these TAGs is going to raise a bet on this flop, or bet if checked to...neither action providing our hapless Hero with any information.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are right here. CO raising our donkbet here would not really give us much useful information. I think there is a very high chance that CO here will in fact raise it no matter his holding.

Where I do see value here is in what this does to our 3rd party. If our donk holds any of a flush draw, the 8 or the T here, I highly doubt he is going to fold even when facing two cold. I do think there is a distinct possibility of him folding a lot of his other holdings however, which would increase our equity in the pot, and thats always a good thing.

Thoughts?

bozlax

09-17-2005, 09:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with your assessment that betting will likely get CO to protect your hand for you, and if BB doesn't fold YOU will without concern. The problem is, if BB does fold, you just paid 2 bets into an 11-bet pot (since we're making this assessment prior we don't count our bets as part of the pot, right?) with a 2-out draw if we're behind, and little to no equity edge if we're ahead, and we have no better idea where we are than we did when BB checked to us.

Redd

09-17-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
well you're ahead of 52 of his hands and behind 36.

the pot is already ~10 sb and there are 16 more hands that you beat than you lose to.

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK (3)
A K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3)

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif(1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ (3)
A Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3)

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ (3)

K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1)

here are 22 hands i say he raises very often on this board. now just to make this 50/50 we only need to say he raises 14 out of the remaining 30 on average. since we also have the 10 bet overlay from the pot, i don't think we're in a terribly bad spot when we are raised on the flop.

okay i'm done with the thread for a while tonight. must go eat ribs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have two concerns with this:
1) 4 of these hands are behind now but have us beat in equity already (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif)
2) IMHO I doubt he's raising 14 of the remaining 30.

bozlax

09-17-2005, 09:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you were the Villain, would you raise AK or AQ here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would, especially if I thought Hero might be raising light to isolate the BB...nth-level thinking, what does Villan know (or think he knows) about what Hero knows (or thinks he knows) about the calling station?

bozlax

09-17-2005, 09:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well you're ahead of 52 of his hands and behind 36.

the pot is already ~10 sb and there are 16 more hands that you beat than you lose to.

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifK/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK (3)
A K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3)

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif(1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifQ/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ (3)
A Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3)

A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1), A/images/graemlins/heart.gifJ/images/graemlins/heart.gif (1)
A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ (3)

K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (1)

here are 22 hands i say he raises very often on this board. now just to make this 50/50 we only need to say he raises 14 out of the remaining 30 on average. since we also have the 10 bet overlay from the pot, i don't think we're in a terribly bad spot when we are raised on the flop.

okay i'm done with the thread for a while tonight. must go eat ribs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have two concerns with this:
1) 4 of these hands are behind now but have us beat in equity already (A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, and K/images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ/images/graemlins/diamond.gif)
2) IMHO I doubt he's raising 14 of the remaining 30.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have a third concern...where are you eating ribs?

aK13

09-17-2005, 09:28 PM

scotty34

09-17-2005, 09:29 PM

OK, so based on my above reasoning of wanting to get BB out and my thinking that CO was almost surely going to raise no matter his holding, I donkbet it. Whether this play was correct or not is still up in the air, and I wouldn't mind more discussion on it, but I'm going to keep the hand moving.

After CO raised, I was quite dismayed to see BB call, but I can't say it shocked me. Does anyone want to fold for one more bet on the flop now? I decided to keep going.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero...?

I don't think we have any more information than we did on the flop. This card completes a flush draw and is also another overcard. We have also picked up a smaller flush draw ourselves.

What's Hero's play here? Check-Fold? Check-Call? Bet-Fold? There is no way I am putting more than one bet in on this street, and even one may be too much.

bozlax

09-17-2005, 09:33 PM

Aaaaiiiiiiiieeeeee! My eyes!

Check-fold. This hand sucks. You have no way of knowing where you stand with respect to TWO opponents, and I'd have a tough time putting any more money into this pot with just one.

bozlax

09-17-2005, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check to the rizzaise for valuedizzle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you been drinking? Or just watching your avatar for too long?

ArturiusX

09-17-2005, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Aaaaiiiiiiiieeeeee! My eyes!

Check-fold. This hand sucks. You have no way of knowing where you stand with respect to TWO opponents, and I'd have a tough time putting any more money into this pot with just one.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're way to weak. We have a potential monster vs a bad player. Who cares if we never know where we stand? We have a good chance of being ahead here.

TheKentock

09-17-2005, 09:56 PM

I disagree. Ignoring the flush that just hit, we still have the 4th best pair against a person who very likely has us beat and a BB who just called 2 cold. Even LPPs don't call 2 cold that often on the flop with hands we beat. (Now remember that the flush hit). I don't think he would with a pair of 3s, but I could with a weak 10 or 8s with a strong kicker. I just don't see us winning this even 10% of the time.

Check fold.

aK13

09-17-2005, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check to the rizzaise for valuedizzle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you been drinking? Or just watching your avatar for too long?

[/ QUOTE ]

CO has likely flopped overs here, and we are likely to be ahead. If we bet and he raises, it doesn't tell us anything, but if we check/raise and he 3bets, then we can pin him on a much more narrow range.

As for the turn, I think I check/call 1 since our diamond might be good, and probably 2 7s are good as well (value our hand at probably 6 outs).

scotty34

09-17-2005, 10:09 PM

OK, so our turn card pretty well screwed us over against the range of our opponents' hands. I checked with the intention of folding to CO's bet.

Wait a minute though! CO takes his free card and pretty much screams to us "Hey! I have AK or AJ!"

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, CO 3-bets, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.66 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

River: (7.66 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero...?

Well we can be I would say 95% confident we are ahead of CO, but he may not be that confident that he is behind. Given that BB did not bet, I would say he does not have an 8 or a flush. A ten is a possibility still I suppose, but I still have no idea what to put him on.

Is this a value bet here? Or do we want to check-call and fold if it means overcalling?

ArturiusX

09-17-2005, 10:52 PM

Value bet. It'll look like a bluff, and overcards will call.

numeri

09-17-2005, 11:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Value bet. It'll look like a bluff, and overcards will call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. We'll win often enough to value bet here.

TheKentock

09-17-2005, 11:12 PM

Yeah, I think we get a call here enough from worse hands to value bet here.
On a more general note, excellent hand. This really peaked my interest in playing 6-max, and at the same time scared me to death that I know very little about poker. That is exactly the type of content I have come to love on this board.

I'm bumping this tomorrow.

scotty34

09-17-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Value bet. It'll look like a bluff, and overcards will call.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. We'll win often enough to value bet here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think the overcards will call often enough to make up for when BB beats us? Again put yourself in CO's position. What range of hands can you put me on that you are beating?

TheKentock

09-17-2005, 11:16 PM

Not only CO is calling with something we beat. BB could be calling with a smaller pocket pair or even A3 if he's super LPP. But you are right, I am much more scared of BB than CO here.

numeri

09-17-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You think the overcards will call often enough to make up for when BB beats us? Again put yourself in CO's position. What range of hands can you put me on that you are beating?

[/ QUOTE ]
You're right, we're forgetting about BB. Any value in this bet is from CO calling and BB folding. If BB calls, we're not winning.

Can we check with the intent of calling a bet from CO if BB folds?

deception5

09-17-2005, 11:37 PM

I don't think this is a good spot to value bet. CO can't call with overs here because the bad player is protecting the pot too often here (and he should know that we know this when betting). A loose passive won't bet a pair (or even trips here) here for fear of the flush. And he'll slowplay a flush. So that leaves him with overs, a straight draw, or a made hand which is likely ahead of ours. It may be a thin value bet if he'll call with overs, but I'd rather check. The only question is whether or not we can overcall if BB calls and that depends on BB's river calling standards.

GTSamIAm

09-17-2005, 11:54 PM

I think CO will bet overcards, thinking you may fold a weaker hand, like a weak pp. If you plan to check/call, that gives BB a chance to check/raise if he is especially strong and for us to fold. I would probably overcall most LPP's here.

numeri

09-18-2005, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think CO will bet overcards, thinking you may fold a weaker hand, like a weak pp. If you plan to check/call, that gives BB a chance to check/raise if he is especially strong and for us to fold. I would probably overcall most LPP's here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but what are they calling with that we beat? And how often do they have such a hand? I think we'll see a T here much more often than some random A-high hand.

I'm for the check/call line, but only if BB folds.

scotty34

09-18-2005, 12:10 AM

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I think CO will bet overcards, thinking you may fold a weaker hand, like a weak pp. If you plan to check/call, that gives BB a chance to check/raise if he is especially strong and for us to fold. I would probably overcall most LPP's here.

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Yeah, but what are they calling with that we beat? And how often do they have such a hand? I think we'll see a T here much more often than some random A-high hand.

I'm for the check/call line, but only if BB folds.

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My thoughts exactly, and that was the line I took. I check, CO bets, BB folds, I call MHIG.

For me, this was one of the most thought-provoking hands I have played in a long time. I certainly gained from this, and I hope you all did too.

numeri

09-18-2005, 12:12 AM

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For me, this was one of the most thought-provoking hands I have played in a long time. I certainly gained from this, and I hope you all did too.

[/ QUOTE ]
This was good for me as well. I'm enjoying my beginnings at 6-max, but I'm definitely still learning when it comes to the marginal plays like this one. Thanks for the challenging discussion! /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

GTSamIAm

09-18-2005, 12:18 AM

6-Max kicks ass.

milesdyson

09-18-2005, 12:23 AM

for whoever wanted to know where i had to go eat ribs, it's lucille's bbq. it's good (http://www.lucillesbbq.com/)

as for the hand, nice hand. like i said before the only other option would be check calling the flop and leading a good turn. that turn isn't good, but i would still check call it with the flush draw and possible best hand.

i don't like check raising the flop because i don't want to check raise the flop and check fold the turn, and i'd rather give BB a chance to fold.

as far as the suited diamond overcard hands having an equity edge over us, they have like a 4% edge heads up, so if BB folds when i get raised by diamond overcards, i have about 50% equity in a large pot. it's not a bad place to be.

numeri

09-18-2005, 12:28 AM

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6-Max kicks ass.

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I know. I'm going to have a hard time going back to full ring. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

ArturiusX

09-18-2005, 01:19 AM

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You think the overcards will call often enough to make up for when BB beats us? Again put yourself in CO's position. What range of hands can you put me on that you are beating?

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In CO's position? Like I said, a bluff /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Pretty clear value bet, check/call line sucks because only better hands will bet.

bozlax

09-18-2005, 11:07 AM

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for whoever wanted to know where i had to go eat ribs, it's lucille's bbq. it's good (http://www.lucillesbbq.com/)

as for the hand, nice hand. like i said before the only other option would be check calling the flop and leading a good turn. that turn isn't good, but i would still check call it with the flush draw and possible best hand.

i don't like check raising the flop because i don't want to check raise the flop and check fold the turn, and i'd rather give BB a chance to fold.

as far as the suited diamond overcard hands having an equity edge over us, they have like a 4% edge heads up, so if BB folds when i get raised by diamond overcards, i have about 50% equity in a large pot. it's not a bad place to be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been to the Lucille's in Rancho Cucamonga. It is good. The wife tells me there's a new place downtown that her secretary (from N.C.) thinks is the best place to eat since she left home. I have to try.

And, I agree, great hand. I do tend to play middle pp's timidly, which I know I need to work on. I just don't like thinking. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif