$200 PL08 hand

[Mendacious]

Anyone play this different?

http://show.imagehosting.us/show/682767/0/nouser_682/T0_-1_682767.jpg

[Spellmen]

You got in with the nuts plus a redraw, what kind of advice do you want /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[DyessMan89]

You played it fine, rough beat.

[Vlight]

I Would probably just call the flop to suck the 3rd player in as well.. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[Chamonyx]

This is one reason I hate flopping straights with limited re-draws. ALthough you have second nut flush draw, Fazo potted it pre-flop and came out strong again, so you probably have to at least consider that he has the A high flush draw.

I think I flat call here and wait till the turn to push if my str8 is still good. Then you are forcing the flush draw (and the set which by then you must suspect Orr_4 of having) to make bad calls for all their stacks. By betting it up on the flop, you gave each of them abou tthe right odds to call all-in.

[Wintermute]

You should seriously consider not posting.

[Chamonyx]

You should seriously consider reading the OP.

I believe it was on the very first line that he asked if anyone else would have played it differently. I am not arrogant enough to assume that the way I would have played it is (by definition) correct, and I am open to any meaningful discussion on alternatives (and I have great respect for 80% of your posts).

If you don't want to participate meaningfully in the discussion then STFU.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
If you don't want to participate meaningfully in the discussion then STFU.

[/ QUOTE ]
The subtext of my post was that your line on this hand is insane. That is meaningful.

Just because someone asks whether others would play a hand differently does not mean that you have to play devil's advocate and suggest a line that is clearly wrong.

[Chamonyx]

Why is it wrong to play a flopped straight with one weak re-draw (although it is a blocker)out of position very cautiously?

[emptyshell]

The only reason you would consider playing it differently is if you think Fazo will blow off the rest of his stack on the turn if you flat call but fold if you raise. Even if you took this line, you would be calling the turn with your K-high flush.

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is it wrong to play a flopped straight with one weak re-draw (although it is a blocker)out of position very cautiously?

[/ QUOTE ]

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Qc Tc Jd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc 3c Ad Qd 550 550 270 0 0 0 0 0.671
Ac 9c Ah 5h 270 270 550 0 0 0 0 0.329

and

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Qc Tc Jd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc 3c Ad Qd 504 504 249 67 0 0 0 0.655
As Ts 7c Th 249 249 504 67 0 0 0 0.345

If you happen to get both to come along, as happened here:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 666 enumerated boards containing Qc Tc Jd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc 3c Ad Qd 256 256 349 61 0 0 0 0.430
As Ts 7c Th 220 220 385 61 0 0 0 0.376
Ac 9c Ah 5h 129 129 537 0 0 0 0 0.194

Why would you want to let them draw cheaply when you have a massive advantage is you can get all-in here? They are much less likely to commit chips on the turn unless they make their hand. Also, the fact that you're OOP is a reason FOR jamming on the flop--this is the best opportunity to get chips into the pot in the times they don't catch you. Finally, more often, you'll find yourself all in on a flop like this against a str with no redraw:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Qc Tc Jd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc 3c Ad Qd 346 346 18 456 0 0 0 0.700
2s Ac Kh Jh 18 18 346 456 0 0 0 0.300

Now, there is a chance you're going to find yourself up against a hand that dominates yours:

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Qc Tc Jd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc 3c Ad Qd 65 65 225 530 0 0 0 0.402
Ac 9c 5c Kh 225 225 65 530 0 0 0 0.598

Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing Qc Tc Jd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Kc 3c Ad Qd 54 54 450 316 0 0 0 0.259
Ac Jc Kh Jh 450 450 54 316 0 0 0 0.741

But you have to put the opponent on a range of hands, and it's most likely you have his ass halfway into the frying pan, about to be severly blackened. In this case, OP got the worst possible situation--both players came along instead of just one, and the draws hit. But in the long run, shoving on the flop in this situation will definitely prove to be the best play.

[Chamonyx]

Great - thank you very much and I really appreciate you sharing your p-o-v in so much detail. (I also apologize for the 2.57 dig in the other thread, uncalled for).

Now, I note that on the flop, the boat draw is correct to call for all his chips when you pot it back to him....he is getting 2:1 on his money which are the correct odds for him to call against you - even if he puts you on the back up flush draw. When it gets back to the nut flush draw, he is certainly getting the correct odds to call, even against both of you. So yes, you have got all the money in with the best of it, but your opponents have also made the correct decision. That's the equity argument right?

So why doesn't Sklansky's Fundametal Theorem of Poker apply here? Why aren't you trying to get opponents to make calls that would be fundamentally incorrect if they could see your cards?

[Wintermute]

[ QUOTE ]
Now, I note that on the flop, the boat draw is correct to call for all his chips when you pot it back to him....he is getting 2:1 on his money which are the correct odds for him to call against you - even if he puts you on the back up flush draw. When it gets back to the nut flush draw, he is certainly getting the correct odds to call, even against both of you. So yes, you have got all the money in with the best of it, but your opponents have also made the correct decision. That's the equity argument right?

[/ QUOTE ]
They both make correct calls given the hand the OP had, but that's not always going to be the case. The set could be up against a higher set, which would be a disaster for him, and if the third player comes along, the set shrinks up badly. (Note that as it played out, hte set's flop call turned out to be -EV once the first guy also called.)

[ QUOTE ]
So why doesn't Sklansky's Fundametal Theorem of Poker apply here? Why aren't you trying to get opponents to make calls that would be fundamentally incorrect if they could see your cards?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's rare for everyone in a hand to make a correct call in the FTOP sense if one person has the best of it (if all hands tie, or if there's a large pot and relatively short stacks left behind, so that everyone can correctly draw). If it were possible for everyone to be "correct", then we would be creating money out of nothing, which would be nice but is impossible. Here, for example, the pot is relatively small and nobody has a short stack on the flop. Where is the FTOP mistake? It's in the set hand, which is paying the other two. He didn't realize it when he made the call, but he was pricing in the nut flush draw, which screwed him.

In general, if this were heads up, then either opponent would be correct to call. However, you are making a "more correct" play (higher EV), so you will still come out ahead.

For what its worth, each perspective has given me ( a beginning O8 player ) valuable information to consider. I thank you both!

[Mendacious]

This is exactly what I was thinking about. Although I strongly prefer PL Omaha to NL Omaha (which i think is a joke) the reality is there was no amount that I could bet that would make this a really bad call for either player. Moreover, although I did not know for sure, it was fairly reasonable to assume that BOTH players would have drawing hands that even though I was an individual favorite against either one, I was not favored to win the hand overall. I think I was getting a fair return on my bet, but is there any reason to play this slower? For instance, do I really save money if a club comes on the turn, and FAZO leads out again. I can't say that this is an automatic fold unless I have a read on Fazo. I'm much more likely to fold if the board pairs, although ironically, I would have been better off overall with just a paired board than the club because the guy with the flush draw had the chips and the guy with trips had a small stack.

I am convinced that I played the hand in a profitable manner in that if I played it that way 100 times, I would come out WAY ahead, however, I'm not sure how it comes out if I play it differently, hence the question. I appreciate the input.