top 5 under 25?

[ejay]

i saw somewhere that daniel n. thinks joe cassidy was the best player in the world under 25. I was a bit suprised by that beacsue you dont hear about him very much. That got me thinking about who i would rank in the top 5 under 25 category. I am by no means an expert but here are my top 5

1. Pharhald Friedman? I think he is 25 right? he is maybe the biggest winner in online poker/ wsop braclet
2. Thunder keller.(24 or 25) braclet + high stakes online player
3. David williams (24). Two second places finishes in big events
4. John dagstino.(22) High tourny finishes + high stakes online player and live
5.Joe Cassidy. High stakes player with some high finishes.

?

[TomHimself]

prahlad has a bracelet? u sure?

[ClaytonN]

Yes he won one for PLHE i think a few years back.

Anyways, we can't really comment on who the best players are under 25 because we never see how they do in the big cashgames and all the other tournaments.

Watching Cassidy talk poker with Hellmuth during the WSOPME final table was interesting.

[ejay]

pot limit hold em 2003.

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
pot limit hold em 2003.

[/ QUOTE ]ok sorry

fischman is 24 or 25 and is a multiple bracelet winner, with one of them coming in one of the most stacked fields ever seen in tournament poker, that in itself is an amazing achievement (2004 HORSE)....it doesnt change that he comes across as a huge douchebag every time he graces a television screen, but you must give credit where it is due.

[ejay]

your right he prolly should be on the list. One thing about him is that he does not play cash games and all of the others do. I tried to base it on both cash games and tournaments

[ononimo]

have you played cash games against all these guys? how could you possibly use cash game results in your analysis?

[sternroolz]

At least a couple of these guys play HUGE cash games. last time in Vegas, I saw two of them explaining to some guy how backing works. Both were backed in whatever big game was going on in the glass room. It wasn't the BIG GAME though.

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
At least a couple of these guys play HUGE cash games. last time in Vegas, I saw two of them explaining to some guy how backing works. Both were backed in whatever big game was going on in the glass room. It wasn't the BIG GAME though.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm sure they do.

my point is that unless you have played against them on a regular basis and/or are somehow privy to info on their cash wins & losses, how can you use cash game results as part of the analysis?

[Sykes]

Fischman and Prahlad have to be included in the top5.

If gigabet is -25 then you have to add him (although I think he is 27 or so).

[TheBlueMonster]

[ QUOTE ]
fischman is 24 or 25 and is a multiple bracelet winner, with one of them coming in one of the most stacked fields ever seen in tournament poker, that in itself is an amazing achievement (2004 HORSE)....it doesnt change that he comes across as a huge douchebag every time he graces a television screen, but you must give credit where it is due.

[/ QUOTE ]
he's not a douche anymore. Even Fossilman likes the guy and he has a pretty good douche-radar /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Notorious G.O.B.]

How old is Eric Sagstrom? I know nothing about the guy's game, but Gus Hansen says he's the best limit hold'em player in the world.

[Python49]

[ QUOTE ]
3. David williams (24). Two second places finishes in big events


[/ QUOTE ]
Please get this guy off your list asap. I could be wrong and i'd hope for someone to clarify but this guy was not a consistent LONG term winner at poker until he got second in the 2004 main event. Can we please not forget how uber donkish his plays were? How many times was he almost eliminated and outdrew someone? Flat calling 33% of your stack out of position with 55 and then checking dark? There are people who have seen him play online and tracked hand histories of him and its been said he is not a long term winner at cash tables. Way I see it, he is another guy who got lucky at a big tourney and now uses that to play poker with. Someone PLEASE give me the facts if im wrong because i'd love to like this guy and give him respect, i just can't do it based on what ive seen from him.

Now on the other hand, scott fischman I feel is a GREAT player. He was winning tournies on pokerstars and grinding out the cash tables at a good win rate long before winning his bracelets. He is very knowledgable in terms of long term success in poker, he multi tables well, and comes across to me as a typical 2+2'er young gun who has put in his time learning about the game. David williams to me does not seem like this type of player. Ask him about about pot odds and expected value and see what he tells you...

replace prahlad (he's 27) w/ eric sagstrom. take off david williams and add scott firschman. like him or not, the guy can play.

[grjr]

[ QUOTE ]
How old is Eric Sagstrom? I know nothing about the guy's game, but Gus Hansen says he's the best limit hold'em player in the world.

[/ QUOTE ]

According to this post (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.gambling.poker/browse_thread/thread/265a46d73f8c9e05/1bcc21fc7a6eb551?q=gak&rnum=5&hl=en) Eric was 15 in 1999 so that would make him 21 or 22 now.

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
he's not a douche anymore. Even Fossilman likes the guy and he has a pretty good douche-radar /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's a compliment. Thanks, in that case.

I like Scott, he just has to distance himself from Dutch.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]

my point is that unless you have played against them on a regular basis and/or are somehow privy to info on their cash wins & losses, how can you use cash game results as part of the analysis?

[/ QUOTE ]

if they're the few under 25 getting backed to play in these big games, I'd say it's safe to say they're the best. if there were better players under 25 you'd think they would be getting backed too, no?

[FoxwoodsFiend]

[ QUOTE ]
Ask him about about pot odds and expected value and see what he tells you...

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea what you're basing this on-do you have some reason to believe that Williams can't do math? He's pretty well-educated and seems to be a very bright person-where is this condescending attitude coming from?

[A_Junglen]

David Williams attended very good colleges..I'm sure he knows more about pot odds and EV than you do.

Anyways, how old is Noah Boeken?

[Python49]

I'm sure he knows about it but he doesnt seem to apply it.. based on what i've seen/heard from him. When I saw him play on ultimate bet he butchered some of those hands. Then the hands that were televised... I mean, I know why I have reason to believe he doesnt pay attention to these things but what is it that you've seen that has shown he does? Like I said, he seems like a great guy, but from what's been said about his cash game play and seen on tv it seems he makes alot of mistakes regarding most of this stuff. Didn't he cold call 1/3 of his chips with 55 then check dark? What's the check for? Is he planning to fold? Why does he not like fold equity? In the heads up match why is he flat calling a large % of his chips with a/4 instead of moving in.

[Georgia Avenue]

Oooh oooh I know!

LOOK HERRR (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/search.php?Cat=)

He has answered all of these questions a million times. You may not like the answers but they exist.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
If gigabet is -25 then you have to add him (although I think he is 27 or so).

[/ QUOTE ]

why? are you basing this on his internet play? he's had some decent result in B&M tournaments but not enough to where i'd include him in this type of list. from what i've read in the past, he's not all that great in cash games. if i remember correctly, he may have solicited a coach from the Mid-High Stakes PL & NL forum to assist him with beat cash games. with all the tournaments he plays on Pokerstars nowadays, it doesn't even seem he has time to seriously devote to mastering cash games.

[jjnidguy]

Our own gavin smith i believe is 24, I think he could be on that list.

I like D'Agostino also, he seems pretty consistent.

[jjnidguy]

Im so glad he pulled that 'dark check' move.

Now everyone is doing it in the cardrooms.

And i can reap the rewards.

some kid tried to use it on me at the final table of a taj daily the other day.

didnt work out good for him.

[Ulysses]

1. Jordan Berkowitz

[Aceshigh7]

[ QUOTE ]
Our own gavin smith i believe is 24, I think he could be on that list.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Our own gavin smith"? I think you mean Gavin Griffin, and he is definitely not top 5. If your compiling a "Top 5 luckiest bracelet winners" then he might belong. His play shown during his WSOP win was pretty bad, and his lack of results since tend to lend credence to that. Can't luckbox your way to a win every time.

[A_Junglen]

1. Scott Fischman
2. Joe Cassidy
3. Prahlad Friedman
4. Noah Boeken
5. John Dagastino

I think Fischman might be 26...w/e

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our own gavin smith i believe is 24, I think he could be on that list.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Our own gavin smith"? I think you mean Gavin Griffin, and he is definitely not top 5. If your compiling a "Top 5 luckiest bracelet winners" then he might belong. His play shown during his WSOP win was pretty bad, and his lack of results since tend to lend credence to that. Can't luckbox your way to a win every time.

[/ QUOTE ]he is a very good player, although i wouldnt call him top 5

[Quicksilvre]

[ QUOTE ]
I think Fischman might be 26...w/e

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he was 23 last year when he won the bracelets, but I'm not 100% positive.

[ononimo]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Jordan Berkowitz

[/ QUOTE ]

bracelet me pls

[transmitt]

Greg,
That is the most telling indictment on Dutch I ever saw; regardless of the multiple posts about him.

Jamie

When David Williams got second in the WSOP he was terrible. In Josh Arieh's blog he says Williams has improved a lot since then however. I played 10/20 with him at the Bellagio on two separate occasions and he was a big donator. Maybe that was because of the stakes not being interesting, but there seemed to be a general disdain for his game by quite a few people.

[jjnidguy]

oh yeah, youre right, i meant gavin griffin (typo/brain-fart)

anyways its not his only win, Im pretty sure he won the mirage poker showdown like 2 months ago, taking a million.

ive seen him cash in several WSOP events.

[jjnidguy]

nevermind nevermind

im getting two people confused with one, theres a gavin smith and grifin. grifin was the kid who posts here who took down the bracelet last year, smith is a 30s looking guy who won a bunch of events, including the main at the mirage.

I assume you just mean top 5 guys under 25 that have been on WSOP or WPT? If not, there are a ton of top online players under 25 that haven't been on WSOP or WPT but have dominated online and done well at other live events like the EPT. Noah Boaken, Justin Bonomo and Carl Olson are 3 that have done that. If Fischman is still 24, he is #1 I'd say.

[Python49]

[ QUOTE ]
When David Williams got second in the WSOP he was terrible. In Josh Arieh's blog he says Williams has improved a lot since then however. I played 10/20 with him at the Bellagio on two separate occasions and he was a big donator. Maybe that was because of the stakes not being interesting, but there seemed to be a general disdain for his game by quite a few people.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly what i'm saying as well. I've also seen him play online... I just feel as thuogh he was a horrible player who lucked up at the wsop and got second, and now with all this money and his enjoyment of the game he's finally starting the learning process but has more money to work with than most people.

Sansone... used to play 50-100 on pokerroom

[jennicide]

I'd add Michael Mizarachi (The Grinder) as well as Michael Gracz (PPM winner as well as a bracelet this year.)

I'm not sure about Grinder's age, maybe 25...However, Michael Gracz is 24.

[A_Junglen]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd add Michael Mizarachi (The Grinder) as well as Michael Gracz (PPM winner as well as a bracelet this year.)

I'm not sure about Grinder's age, maybe 25...However, Michael Gracz is 24.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh duh, Gracz should definitely be there.

[Daliman]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our own gavin smith i believe is 24, I think he could be on that list.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Our own gavin smith"? I think you mean Gavin Griffin, and he is definitely not top 5. If your compiling a "Top 5 luckiest bracelet winners" then he might belong. His play shown during his WSOP win was pretty bad, and his lack of results since tend to lend credence to that. Can't luckbox your way to a win every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what "Luckbox" plays did he make, except the standard call of Hellmuth's limp & bet? Most every other play I saw was either a solid play or aggressive play, period.

Newsflash: EVERY SINGLE MAJOR TOURNAMENT WINNER WAS VERY LUCKY WHEN THEY WON!

Personally, from the results that we have seen out of Gracz in the poker tournies he's entered, he's been nothing short of remarkable. He knows when to bluff, seems to have an almost sick sense for when he's ahead in hands, and definately understands the tourney strategy by the back of his hand. Although I don't know if he plays cash games on a regular basis or not, I think Joe Cassidy and Michael Mizrachi both belong on the top 5 list of those under 25, you can't go wrong with either of these 3 players I've mentioned. You will be seeing alot more from these 3 guys in years to come, I promise you that.

[Dave Mac]

sorry to bump this thread but gratz suckksss.

What about Erik Sagstrom? Swedish kid who just turned 21 and is reportedly the biggest money winner in history of online poker (speculation of between $5-10 million). Gus Hansen says he is the best limit hold 'em player in the world, and this guy plays for huge stakes in cash games, and is just hitting tourney circuit.

[tthree]

John Murphy had a decent showing at the 2004 ME and also won two tournaments this year...not too sure what types of cash games he plays in.

John Murphy... this guy is still around???

[DeezNutz3]

plays big NL games at the Commerce and yes is still very solid

[Ogre]

me, i have tons of years before im 25

[TheJackal]

Top 5 (in no particular order):
Joe Cassidy
Thomas Keller
The Grinder
Jdags
Erik123

[KaneKungFu123]

[ QUOTE ]
What about Erik Sagstrom? Swedish kid who just turned 21 and is reportedly the biggest money winner in history of online poker (speculation of between $5-10 million). Gus Hansen says he is the best limit hold 'em player in the world, and this guy plays for huge stakes in cash games, and is just hitting tourney circuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

this makes me laugh my ass off....5-10 million estimate.... thats quite a gap isnt it?

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our own gavin smith i believe is 24, I think he could be on that list.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Our own gavin smith"? I think you mean Gavin Griffin, and he is definitely not top 5. If your compiling a "Top 5 luckiest bracelet winners" then he might belong. His play shown during his WSOP win was pretty bad, and his lack of results since tend to lend credence to that. Can't luckbox your way to a win every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what "Luckbox" plays did he make, except the standard call of Hellmuth's limp & bet? Most every other play I saw was either a solid play or aggressive play, period.

Newsflash: EVERY SINGLE MAJOR TOURNAMENT WINNER WAS VERY LUCKY WHEN THEY WON!

[/ QUOTE ]

Dali makes a good point that needs to be emphasized over and over for those on this forum who have practically no real understanding of tournament poker, yet think they do. You should expect to see anyone who does well in a tournament get lucky on a few occasions, if not many.

Whomever made the original post, I'm not going to waste the time of scrolling up to see who you are, but by posting something like this, you are showing that you really have no idea what's going on when you watch a poker tournament.

Also your knowledge of Gavin's recent poker tournament history is irrelevant. For all you know Gavin has made hundreds of thousands of dollars playing cash games or touranments online. Taking a sample of maybe anywhere from 20-100 live tournaments and assuming that because Gavin had no great results in them, he is clearly a "luckbox", shows that you have no concept of variance.

The people running this forum really need to be harsher when posters are so ignorant, because its happening all the time over here. At least make some rudimentary effort to educate people about how poker and poker tournaments really work, instead of having these endless absurd posts about how so and so is lucky, so and so sucks at poker because of this one hand I saw on TV and so and so hasn't performed well lately in his last 10 major events, and thus is clearly not as good as everyone thought.

[kitaristi0]

[ QUOTE ]
sorry to bump this thread but gratz suckksss.

[/ QUOTE ]

After winning the Party Poker Million and a WSOP bracelet, I think it's safe to say that Gracz doesn't suck.

[arod15]

looks good but what about ERIK123....

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Our own gavin smith i believe is 24, I think he could be on that list.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Our own gavin smith"? I think you mean Gavin Griffin, and he is definitely not top 5. If your compiling a "Top 5 luckiest bracelet winners" then he might belong. His play shown during his WSOP win was pretty bad, and his lack of results since tend to lend credence to that. Can't luckbox your way to a win every time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what "Luckbox" plays did he make, except the standard call of Hellmuth's limp & bet? Most every other play I saw was either a solid play or aggressive play, period.

Newsflash: EVERY SINGLE MAJOR TOURNAMENT WINNER WAS VERY LUCKY WHEN THEY WON!

[/ QUOTE ]

Ross: You know what, you're not gonna suck me into this.

Rachel: Oh sure I am, because you always have to be right.

Ross: I do not always have to be... okay, okay. (starts to leave)

Rachel: Jurassic Park... could've happened.

[Dave Mac]

i am un impressed he ran good, if you have played with him you would know.

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
me, i have tons of years before im 25

[/ QUOTE ]

if Ogre's dad would stop limiting his playing time to weekends, I think he would be a better player than anyone on list list by the time hes 25.

[LLKOOLK1]

I saw him at the WSOP playing NL cash at I belive 50-100 blinds, and within 4 hours had amassed a monster stack, at least 4 times what he had started with. I know this means nothing, but he was defintly playing at a high limit and seemingly doing very well. I am pretty sure this was the highest NL game going on at the time.
But I still cannot put him on this list
-LL

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
I saw him at the WSOP playing NL cash at I belive 50-100 blinds, and within 4 hours had amassed a monster stack, at least 4 times what he had started with. I know this means nothing, but he was defintly playing at a high limit and seemingly doing very well. I am pretty sure this was the highest NL game going on at the time.
But I still cannot put him on this list
-LL

[/ QUOTE ]who?

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
me, i have tons of years before im 25

[/ QUOTE ]

if Ogre's dad would stop limiting his playing time to weekends, I think he would be a better player than anyone on list list by the time hes 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in all fairness, there are probably a ton of people who play online his age who will be a better player than anyone on this list by the time they are 25.

[Sponger15SB]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I saw him at the WSOP playing NL cash at I belive 50-100 blinds, and within 4 hours had amassed a monster stack, at least 4 times what he had started with. I know this means nothing, but he was defintly playing at a high limit and seemingly doing very well. I am pretty sure this was the highest NL game going on at the time.
But I still cannot put him on this list
-LL

[/ QUOTE ]who?

[/ QUOTE ]

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/1838/clickhere6zj.jpg

[TomHimself]

ahhh murph dog

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
me, i have tons of years before im 25

[/ QUOTE ]

if Ogre's dad would stop limiting his playing time to weekends, I think he would be a better player than anyone on list list by the time hes 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in all fairness, there are probably a ton of people who play online his age who will be a better player than anyone on this list by the time they are 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is probably true. although I dont think there are "a ton" that are his age and as good as he is right now.

[TomHimself]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
me, i have tons of years before im 25

[/ QUOTE ]

if Ogre's dad would stop limiting his playing time to weekends, I think he would be a better player than anyone on list list by the time hes 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in all fairness, there are probably a ton of people who play online his age who will be a better player than anyone on this list by the time they are 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is probably true. although I dont think there are "a ton" that are his age and as good as he is right now.

[/ QUOTE ]how old is he?

[NLSoldier]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
me, i have tons of years before im 25

[/ QUOTE ]

if Ogre's dad would stop limiting his playing time to weekends, I think he would be a better player than anyone on list list by the time hes 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in all fairness, there are probably a ton of people who play online his age who will be a better player than anyone on this list by the time they are 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is probably true. although I dont think there are "a ton" that are his age and as good as he is right now.

[/ QUOTE ]how old is he?

[/ QUOTE ]

16

I like your list with the exception of Williams. Williams had a good couple of months in 2004 but that has really been it WHEN you compare him to his peers. I watched his head's up with DN at the Borgata last year and just cannot list him in the top 5 under 25.

[captZEEbo1]

Everyone really thinks DAGS is top 5 under 25? I can't speak much for his MTT and limit poker (he is probably pretty good there), but I play him HU at 25/50 and 50/100 nl most chances I can get. I never have a problem having him at my table. He seems good at limit, but with talking with him, he admits there's a number of players he simply won't play heads up limit he with because they are better than him (which would take him out of the top 5 category).

I'm skeptical how good thunderkeller is too.

David Williams SURELY is not very good, at least at NL cash games he is very very very bad from my limited experience playing with and watching him. I would LOVE to play him HU for the rest of my life. He might be OKAY at tournaments, but certainly not even that great. At best, I'd say he's a donator of high stakes NL cash games.

[jhall23]

#1.

http://pcaimages.pokerstars.com/mct1ashman.jpg

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm skeptical how good thunderkeller is too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have only seen him play well at high-stakes full game limit, high stakes SH limit, high stakes HU limit, high-stakes NL, high-stakes HU 08, and tournament poker. So, other than that, he might suck.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your list with the exception of Williams. Williams had a good couple of months in 2004 but that has really been it WHEN you compare him to his peers. I watched his head's up with DN at the Borgata last year and just cannot list him in the top 5 under 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah it was really embarrassing for Williams how he check raise bluffed DN out of like 10 consecutive pots.

[PITTM]

yeah, i knew him our freshman year in santa barbara, hes from danville and he used to play in the big game at lucky chances. i guess hes moved to LA now.

rj

[Dave Mac]

zing.

[LLKOOLK1]

Agreed, i though williams played pretty well heads up. I know he was aggressive with allot of hands, that in retrospect were defintly overplayed,but he defintly gave negreanu some problems.
I think Williams is a strong up and coming player, but once again, this list may be to competitive to put him on.
-LL

[Python49]

Whose this guy? I don't recognize him... is this DanDruff?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like your list with the exception of Williams. Williams had a good couple of months in 2004 but that has really been it WHEN you compare him to his peers. I watched his head's up with DN at the Borgata last year and just cannot list him in the top 5 under 25.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah it was really embarrassing for Williams how he check raise bluffed DN out of like 10 consecutive pots.

[/ QUOTE ]

...Then eventually went bust when he paid off DN's premium hands.

But nice try. David Williams is the Derek Jeter of poker, very over-rated. What I saw against DN heads up was just horrible. He also sucked it up against the "Young Guns" on the WPT. And lest we forget, he should have went out 17th or something in the '04 ME, and none of us would even know who he was. He'd be back in school playing $2/$4 NL on party.

[ QUOTE ]

I think Williams is a strong up and coming player, but once again, this list may be to competitive to put him on.
-LL

[/ QUOTE ]

Understatement of the millennium.

[TomHimself]

he played fine against DN HU. get off his jock

He misplayed a certain hand horribly and it was a huge mistake. He river-bluffed into a huge pot with nothing when DN had a made hand. He gave DN odds to call with King high in that pot. It was one of the worst plays I've ever seen. Slightly less horrible than the call with 55 against Arieh last year.

When playing HU, you cannot afford to leak during any hand whatsoever. Your leaks become magnified against less opponents. His shortcomings were very evident, and have been over several telecasts. I'm sick of hearing how good this guy is. He just isn't.

He made a pantload of friends in the poker world because they all know he is/was a fish with $4 Million. Just because he hangs with DN and Arieh now and whomever else, doesn't make him a good player.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
He misplayed a certain hand horribly and it was a huge mistake. He river-bluffed into a huge pot with nothing when DN had a made hand. He gave DN odds to call with King high in that pot. It was one of the worst plays I've ever seen. Slightly less horrible than the call with 55 against Arieh last year.

When playing HU, you cannot afford to leak during any hand whatsoever. Your leaks become magnified against less opponents. His shortcomings were very evident, and have been over several telecasts. I'm sick of hearing how good this guy is. He just isn't.

He made a pantload of friends in the poker world because they all know he is/was a fish with $4 Million. Just because he hangs with DN and Arieh now and whomever else, doesn't make him a good player.

[/ QUOTE ]


OH MY GOD I HATE THIS FORUM!!!

The truth sometimes hurts.

[curtains]

[ QUOTE ]
The truth sometimes hurts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes because me and David Williams are such close personal friends, it hurts me so much to hear that people think he sucks. I'm just tired of morons in this forum basing their opinion of someones play on nonsense. Big poker tournaments aren't as easy as they look.

[sirio11]

[ QUOTE ]
OH MY GOD I HATE THIS FORUM!!!


[/ QUOTE ]

Instead of this reply, maybe you should point out why you think the other poster is mistaken.

:

Person 1 says: Propositions A,B and C are true.

Person 2 says: You suck

Does this mean person 2 thinks propositions A,B and C are false?

FWIW I think David W is a great player and I think he made one terribe mistake vs DN. Even great players make terrible mistakes.

[curtains]

Everyone isnt perfect, people make mistakes, even bad ones. Obviously this doesn't mean they suck and are terrible players. I wrote some giant essay up above about this topic or in another thread. I can only write the same thing so often. There should be moderators who at least try to help understand how poker tournaments work.

Everytime someone asks some stupid newbie question or says something ridiculous in the STT section, many people immediately come to the rescue and let them know that "no a 50% ROI is not possible", and "no 60 tournaments is not a big enough sample size", and usually they are directed to the FAQ.

There should be people here who do that and explain that because youve seen a few "misplayed" hands on TV, it doesnt mean that the player is terrible.

I mean Chad Brown is obviously the worst player in all of poker because of some hand he played in the WSOP Circuit, Gavin Griffin is a huge lucky player because he hasnt had any big scores lately, David Williams sucks because he made some ill timed river bluff, oh my God Daniel Negreanu hasnt cashed in the first 8 WSOP events, Greg Raymer is just lucky because he won 2 times as an underdog when allin at the final table with a 10-1 chip lead over his opponents.

I mean it's too ridiculous, if the forum wants to remain stupid then fine. But everytime someone makes a statement based on one hand that they saw, or the lack of tournaments that someone has won over a 20-50 tournament stretch, then they almost surely have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and have no business passing judgement on others. I figure that this forum should at least be trying to educate people about how poker really works, instead of just letting them remain ignorant.


PS - I'll give the forum Danny Nguyen. They can call him a fish if they want to, although I'm sure he can be annoying to play against.

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FWIW I think he made one terribe mistake vs DN. Even great players make terrible mistakes.

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Yes, but no member of the top 5 under 25 should ever make mistakes this large. And if they do, then there is no point in discussing these players, as there isn't much "top"-like about their play to discuss.

Does this make sense? If Williams is number 5, then we should only discuss the "Top 4 under 25", because discussing number 5, in this instance, would be -EV.

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if the forum wants to remain stupid then fine. But everytime someone makes a statement based on one hand that they saw, then they almost surely have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and have no business passing judgement on others.


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I'm basing my judgement of him on what I've seen at the '04WSOP, the WPT versus Negreanu, and the "Young Guns" WPT that he was INVITED TO. I saw him make 1 good play on the young guns show and that was it, really. I saw him make dozens of ill-timed, poor-judgement plays. I'm sorry if this hurts your feelings.

What from him have you seen that would allow you to judge him a great player??? I don't get it... have you logged hundreds of hands with him? Have you seen televised events that I haven't?

Why can you deem him a great player from watching a few televised events, yet I can't deem him a poor player? It's "rude" and "ignorant" of me? Unless you personally know the guy and have witnessed him make phenomenal plays first hand, then you have no additional input with which to judge him.

So get out of your high tower, take down your DW poster, and face the fact that nobody would know who he was had he went out 17th in the WSOP like he almost did.

Try fighting a battle worth it. This isn't. The guy has $4 Million, he doesn't care if K Steel thinks he sucks, neither should you.

[curtains]

I don't care about David Williams at all, I would have said the same thing for any player that gets unfairly criticized, as I did earlier in this thread when someone attacked Gavin Griffin.

I never said hes in the "top 5" or would even attempt to argue such a thing. What I'm responding to is the claim that he's just "not that good" and hes a "fish with 4 million". You are not arguing that he's not top 5, you are arguing that he sucks at poker.

Everytime someone plays on TV they get criticized pretty severely on this site. It's very rare for someone to actually get credit for playing well. If they make one mistake its magnified so greatly. Please note that even the absolute best players in the world will make terrible looking mistakes. Some of them may just be lucky that they don't occur during the 5 or 10 hands that are shown on TV (out of the 500 hands played during the event!)

I could list what I "think" are a multitude of poor plays by players on TV. I would never say that these players are not good because of this.

[Voltron87]

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It's very rare for someone to actually get credit for playing well.

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Usually when someone plays well the other player gets trashed and the good play gets ignored.

When you are under the stress of the late stages of a big tournament and play that many hands, you will make mistakes. These mistakes will look even worse out of context.

I don't even watch TV poker anymore, it's a waste of time. If the shows put up more graphics of the current exact chipstacks, pot sizes, it might be worthwhile. But otherwise its exactly like watching a football game without know what down it is, or where on the field they are. I watch it and two guys raise preflop and bet, it means nothing.

[captZEEbo1]

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I'm skeptical how good thunderkeller is too.

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I have only seen him play well at high-stakes full game limit, high stakes SH limit, high stakes HU limit, high-stakes NL, high-stakes HU 08, and tournament poker. So, other than that, he might suck.

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Maybe I've just been seeing him on a bad streak at high stakes HU limit then. I just said skeptical, b/c it seems weird to just throw him up on the top 5 players under 25 so easily. I didn't say he sucked at poker, he's clearly better than 99.9% of poker players, but top 5 is a pretty bold statement. For instance, if you were a top 5 player, I'd assume you wouldn't mind playing with nearly ANY opponent, however I know he refuses to play a handful of people.

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I like your list with the exception of Williams. Williams had a good couple of months in 2004 but that has really been it WHEN you compare him to his peers. I watched his head's up with DN at the Borgata last year and just cannot list him in the top 5 under 25.

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Yeah it was really embarrassing for Williams how he check raise bluffed DN out of like 10 consecutive pots.

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I was referring to David Williams as a poker player, not just as a TOURNAMENT poker player. While watching him and playing with him at 50/100 nl cash, I realized this kid has a LOT to learn about poker. I wouldn't consider someone one of the top 5 poker players in the world in a certain age group, if they are taking absurdly -EV spots (3 handed nl cash with prahlad and ivey). I wish I had the hand history saved, because I was laughing so much while watching him at how bad he played.

[sirio11]

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I never said hes in the "top 5" or would even attempt to argue such a thing. What I'm responding to is the claim that he's just "not that good" and hes a "fish with 4 million". You are not arguing that he's not top 5, you are arguing that he sucks at poker.


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To K Steel:

You made those strong comments K Steel, I think it's up to you to prove them, not up to us to disprove them. To be honest I think you have a pretty weak case to prove your point.