Raising A9o, ATo, and A8s in Late Position.

[Huh]

I've recently been running bad, so I've decided to take a couple of weeks off and do some reading. I'm sure my game has detoriated over the last couple of months, and figured I would study up before it got any worse. My only solace is that I am still up several hundred big bets, but it still isn't pleasent to slide. I feel like I have been playing well, but my results dictate otherwise, and I know better than to trust my instincts.

Anyhow, my plan was to re-read the Lee Jones Book, the Theory of Poker, HEFAP, Middle Limit Hold'em poker, and all the Abdul Jalib stuff. That should keep me busy for the month.

Anyhow, I just re-finished the Lee Jones book, and I'm a bit suprised by some of the late re-raises that are recommended. Particularly A9 off, AT off, and A8s with less than four callers. I can't imagine that this is a good thing. Sure, I like punishing small suited cards as much as the next guy, but it seems like you have a huge chance of being dominated. I frequently muck A9off, and would probably just call A8s, to try and encourage even more people to call. Am I missing something?

-Huh /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[WiredPair]

I believe the reason he suggests this is that if you are in late position and no one has raised, chances are people may have limped in with trash and your hand is looking like a monster! If you were up against AK-AJ, they probably would have raised in front of you. If you are in the same position, but facing a raise, I think this would be the situation where most likely you are dominated and should consider giving up the hand (especially A9o).

[Munga30]

I'm not up to speed on the Jones book, but does it say you should re-raise (i.e., three or four bet) with those cards?

With ATo in late position, I might 3 bet someone who has been repeatedly trying to isolate that poor limper all night. I wouldn't do it with A9o for the arbitrary reason that if I'm making this play with more hands, I have more oppportunities to screw up and loose a lot of cash. If my hand reading were better, I might A9o to this very limited situation.

Quit cold calling with A8s. If you can't quit cold turkey, at least only do it half the time, say with red cards. Why have implied odds working against you? Of course, it depends on your game. If cold calling will often (75% of the time?) result in 7 way for two bets, gambool it up.

". . . but it seems like you have a huge chance of being dominated. . . . Am I missing something?"

Nope. It seems you are playing in games at which the Jones book is not aimed.

[Ralle]

It seems to me that every time I've recently read HPFAP I do worse than if I just read Jones' book. This is very strange because I find HPFAP to be an excellent book. Maybe it's just not right for my games (mostly low-limit, some low middle-limit).

[Huh]

Sorry, the recommendation is not for re-raises, it is just raises. I don't like raising A9off, or A8 with 4 or fewer callers to me...Is this a mistake?

Huh /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[SoBeDude]

Wow I like to toss A9o into the muck if I have 3 callers, but it IS player dependent. I think playing it here should be a very rare pay.

If I have two weak fish in I might raise, but against the typical fish that go too far I don't like my hand (muck).

Also, with multiple opponents who go too far with their hands, you have to hit and hit very well to win with A9o. An ace flopping is not necessarily a good thing as you can easily get outkicked (or pair their kicker).

I really question this play.

-Scott

[Ed Miller]

A9o is a weak hand, and should be played (or not played) as such. I don't like Jones's advice regarding the hand. ATo is similarly weak... and should be played with caution. A8s is a much stronger hand... I will frequently raise with this hand from late position after several limpers.

[Huh]

ATo, I don't mind limping with. I think I win more than my fair share with this hand in late position for two reasons.

1)You can flop top-pair top-kicker with this hand and have a decent chance to confront people with a bet and raise, forcing over-cards out.
2)When you hit your ace, it is fairly likely to be good. I'm not saying all the time, and I am not fond of a ten kicker, but many many players play AXs, and then stick around past the flop when the A hits. There are more X's out there smaller than 10 than bigger.

Anyhow, I guess in the case 1 raising might get some random A || K || Q || J out of someones hand, helping you, but why would I want to discourage Ax from seeing the flop. Also, if I raise with this hand, I would think it will be harder for me to move people out of pot. Just some thoughts.

For some reason A9o is the line for me. Probably becuase I have ten fingers and ten toes, but for some reason ATo just seems much more powerful than A9o. And it has nothing to do with broadway...I realize this is a sucky broadway hand.

Funny that this is where I draw the line, since my stats show I have made a small profit with ATo, and a small loss with A9o.


Huh /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

[Ralle]

Assume you have A9 in late position at a loose-passive table, and that a few people (not too many) have limped. In my experience lots of people like to come in for a raise with AQ and AJ, even though they usually play a passive game. If that's true, then the only real danger is someone having limped with AT.

If you raise maybe you can get AT and AJ to fold behind you. If someone behind you calls, you may very well be in danger. Otherwise chances should be good of taking the pot if an A comes along. If someone cold called behind you (except maybe the blinds), and an A flops, you should probably check-fold.

Also, since you probably don't want a tight image at this table, there is the added benefit of you appearing loose and lucky if someone calls you down with a smaller pair or smaller kicker.

Does this make sense, or am I way off here?

[cferejohn]

That sounds about right to me Ralle. In most games, most players will raise with AJ or AQ. If there have been only limpers, you are probably ahead.

That said, I'm surprised he would recommend it with as many as 4 limpers. I would certainly consider raising with ATo or even A9o against 1 or even 2 limpers, but 3 or more seems like trouble, especially since that many limpers (who will presumably call your second bet) is going to encourage decent drawing hands to cold-call. If you raise this with several limpers, you could well end up with 6 or 7 players seeing the flop for 2 bets each, which is going to give them odds to call you down with as little as a gutshot, and that's not really what you want.

I think it has a lot to do with how many players you think you can drive out. If you are in the sort of game where everyone who was going to call 1 bet will automatically call 2, I don't think this is a good idea. If you can get a couple hands that have a good, or even reasonable, chance of beating you (AJ, KQ) to fold, I think the raise is probably good, epecially if the limpers are weak.