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View Full Version : ($27) Min bets, yuck


durron597
09-17-2005, 02:31 PM
This player called a flop bet with QJ on a ATx board, checked behind on the turn and bet the second ace on the river, his opponent folded and he showed the bluff. Anyone raise this flop?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

CO (t3265)
Hero (t2015)
SB (t1470)
BB (t2770)
UTG (t3310)
MP (t670)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t300</font>, SB calls t250, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: (t700) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.

Turn: (t900) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.

River: (t1100) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t100</font>, Hero calls t100.

Final Pot: t1300

miami32
09-17-2005, 02:58 PM
I think you should raise on the flop. At that low level of play the type of player rarely bluffs IMO. You can raise and if he reraises, safely muck your hand because you can be sure he had a ten or pocket pair. When you call down you just lose money. Also if you do have the best hand why risk a free card. The majority of the time you raise and win, but if he rearaises you, you can slow down or fold with folding the majority of the time.

durron597
09-17-2005, 06:03 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I think you should raise on the flop. At that low level of play the type of player rarely bluffs IMO. You can raise and if he reraises, safely muck your hand because you can be sure he had a ten or pocket pair. When you call down you just lose money. Also if you do have the best hand why risk a free card. The majority of the time you raise and win, but if he rearaises you, you can slow down or fold with folding the majority of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much would you raise to, given the size of the pot and my stack size?

miami32
09-17-2005, 07:16 PM
I would raise him 300 more, make it 400 to go. I think that is pretty much the right raise depending on my read of the player. What did you think of him? I guessing he is terrible by 3 straight min bets so I think 400 would be the right amount. I would guess right now that he might have had a small pair or the lower card paired him. So now I want to fold. Eh, I don't know. The more I think about the situation if I was in your spot I would be annoyed.

durron597
09-17-2005, 07:36 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I would raise him 300 more, make it 400 to go. I think that is pretty much the right raise depending on my read of the player. What did you think of him? I guessing he is terrible by 3 straight min bets so I think 400 would be the right amount. I would guess right now that he might have had a small pair or the lower card paired him. So now I want to fold. Eh, I don't know. The more I think about the situation if I was in your spot I would be annoyed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be annoyed too, that's why I posted the hand. But he's not folding for 300 more into an 800 pot getting like 4:1. Pushing is certainly an option but that 100 is often a value bet from a T, or nothing.

DyessMan89
09-17-2005, 07:46 PM
Your play preflop is fine. On the flop, the min-bet does look fishy. He could be "value betting" an A /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif, he could have a T, or he could be betting with overs. I think flat calling here creates more problems then it answers. Im raising this to 500. Hes still getting decent odds, but I think you can reduce his holdings a bit. If he comes over the top, Im folding.

miami32
09-17-2005, 07:47 PM
See I think you are giving $11 dollar players way to much credit. I don't think they take into account pot odds at all. I think he sees a raise. That is all the random donk sees. He thinks to himself-he raised, he must be strong. If he has a ten I'm 99% positive he will push. That is what they do. I hate pushing because it's risking your tourney on ace high. I think you have to wait for a much better spot to push. If he reraises you fold. Even if he just bluffed you, the majority of the time you will beat him and the rest of the players with solid play.

ps-msu nd game was sick.

durron597
09-17-2005, 07:58 PM
[ QUOTE ]
See I think you are giving $11 dollar players

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a $27 on Stars.

miami32
09-17-2005, 08:34 PM
my bad, but still. It does help define the hand and I don't think they take pot odds into account.

09-17-2005, 10:45 PM
Did he have xJ or something here?

Making a decent raise here is committing you to the pot with ace high, and you may be beat. Making a pussy raise to like T300-50 doesn't really achieve anything as your opponent has about 5-1 to call.

Basically you're hand is too weak to be worth protecting (risk vs reward) and folding the flop is pretty bad. So I prefer calling him down as you did.

Xhad
09-17-2005, 11:12 PM
Most of the people in this thread seem to be of the opinion that calling is wasting chips, therefore we should raise even though in the end that costs more than calling the minibets? I don't like folding just for the precedent it sets (makes it too easy to foil your steals), so I call the flop.

If he has a strong hand, most people will wake up and bet more on the turn (has he minibet yet this SNG?). If I'm going to raise, I'll do it on the turn because I'm not convinced he has a good hand. Assuming he's able to fold, that is.

bluefeet
09-18-2005, 12:31 AM
I call the flop, raise the turn. Villian only has about 1k left after leading this flop. I personally don't think he's leading with a "T" - a "3" or flush draw is more likely IMO. An overpair is certainly pushing PF. The other hand to consider is a PP&lt;TT.

If we pop him here on the flop, you're looking at getting donk pushed if he has the "3" (you've seen it plenty of times I'm sure). The same could even be said for a flush draw. With "two to come", having already invested 1/3 his stack to this pot...aggression here on your part might push him over the end.

If we stick with the "3" or draw, this broadway-non-spade is just what we needed. If you represent the "J" here, I personally can't put him on a hand that isn't behind (in his mind). I'd make it 400-500 to go here. Granted, he does have the "odds" to call with a flush draw...but he's going to be hard-pressed to do so, looking at only 900ish in front of him...with "ONE to come". The other holdings WILL fold the better hand to this raise. Well...should anyway (the "3", 55-77). With you waking up on the turn, his tourney at stake, I think you stand a good chance to get the FD to drop here too.

If he pushes back? Eh....fold. You still have 1,200'ish yourself.

If he calls? Well, considering we've weeded his holdings down to a flush draw here, you stand a realistic chance at winning the hand with A-high. Even if it hits, he might take a c/r line with it. Regardless of the river, I think you're done spending chips. If he pairs with the non-spade, he just might call your sure-to-be modest "value bet" assuming you miss. I'd be looking to check this down.

durron597
09-18-2005, 12:33 AM
The pot is so big compared to his stack size (and my stack size!) What are you raising to that isn't basically allin?

tjh
09-18-2005, 12:44 AM
[ QUOTE ]
he's not folding for 300 more into an 800 pot getting like 4:1. Pushing is certainly an option but that 100 is often a value bet from a T, or nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would be surprised, YOU may take pot odds into account but THEY do not seem to. Consider one of the other plays that forum members like the "stop and go" a move that depends on the players not understanding pot odds.

When I bluff and I am raised my first insinct is that I am beat and should fold. Before I fold I put my oponent on a range of hands, count my outs, assess my stack and how well I can play if I let this pot go and then I make my decision.

If your opponent in this hand is bluffing with a minbet then he is not likely going to call any raise over 200 chips. They do not seem to do much in the way of pot odds calculations.

--
tjh

bluefeet
09-18-2005, 12:58 AM
I think you overlook the fact that many are MUCH more conscious of "the # of chips in front of them" + "crap, i'm beat". Those two factor in a fold in many occasions where they have odds to proceed. Providing an "exit" in a turbo to someone that can still see the light, is often easier than it should be.