7CS/8 - Split Kings With a Short Stack Against Multiple Lows

[Rick Nebiolo]

You are in the money with 12 players left in a middle size seven card stud eight or better event. As usual, the big money doesn't come into play until you get to the last few places.

You have a short stack of T5000 and the limits are T2000/T4000. A low card brings in for T500 and two players with low cards up have already called. There is one low card yet to act besides the bring in. You have (Ac-Kd) Kh. Should you call, fold or complete to T2000 (planning to go all in no matter what) and is it a close decision?

Regards,

Rick

[ohkanada]

I havn't played many stud/8 tournies but I would raise and plan to go all-in asap. I don't think its close.

If you fold, what are you looking for?

Ken Poklitar

[Rick Nebiolo]

Ken,

I'm asking this one on a friend's behalf. I thought it was a call too. My friend called and went out when one of the lows developed into a flush.

In a ring game with deep stacks I think a case can be made for folding (if one more low is in it is a relatively clear fold IMO). The hand has potential to lose lots on later streets. Of course in a tournament with a short stack you are all in on fourth or fifth street so this isn't a consideration.

If the side card was a banana do you still think it is an easy call?

Regards,

Rick

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'd rather have A-low-low suited to give me outs both ways. In this situation, If I raise and get called by even two of my opponents, I'd have to think my ace isn't very live, and now I'm playing a vulnerable hand all-in for half the pot.
But, then again, I don't play many Stud8 tournaments, either.

[Gitz]

I agree with the raise. It may make up the mind of the player still left and maybe one other that's in already. If not your going to play this all-in shortly anyway. Having the ace(AK)K in your hand takes it outta the players hands. If 4 low players are in that leaves more high cards for you hopefully a K.

I've only played a few O8 trnmts but I agree with Ohkanada

Paul

PS: The person with the flush wasn't the person still left to act????

[Gitz]

(Correction)

I've only played a few 7cs/8 trnmts but I agree with Ohkanada

[Greg (FossilMan)]

Rick, you are pretty much dead on.

In a ring game, where there is betting through the river, split Kings is not a great hand. It is usually playable, but you often have to dump on 4th or 5th when players catch really good. And, much of the profit of the hand comes early while you're ahead, and then you lose some back with crying calls on 6th and 7th. As you noted, your friend is all-in on 3rd or 4th, and won't lose any chips later if he is caught up with.

I would say it's a clear raise, as you would like to limit the field to the greatest extent possible.

In terms of your hand's strength, having the A isn't that great. It does mean if you and somebody else make As up, you've got the best possible As up. However, the real advantage of this card is it is now that much harder for somebody with a low to also make a pair of As and beat you for high when you don't improve your Ks.

BTW, this must not have been a high dollar event, as it is rare to have so many limpers in such a tourney. However, stranger things have happened than having multiple limpers in the money at the WSOP or the like.

later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

[Rick Nebiolo]

Greg,

The event was the Mini WSOP last night at the Bike with a buy in of $125 (all events preceed the Binion's event by one day and are 5% of the Binion's buy in). Naturally there is a mixture of players at this level.

My friend a.k.a. Hero was beating herself up over the call so I thought I'd cheer her up by posting it. In a ring game (lately she plays 20/40 stud/8 or 30/60 stud8/omaha mix) she understands the weakness of the hand against multiple limpers. But going all in made a huge difference.

Good point regarding the true value of the ace.

BTW, I may make it back East in a few months and will try to fit in a trip to Foxwoods or Mohegan with John Cole (or my Mom if she wants to play bingo and slots).

Regards,

Rick

[Andy B]

For the benefit of those who don't read my maniacal rantings on the stud forum, I'm mostly a cash game player with a less-than-mediocre tournament record. Stud/8 is probably my best game, or at least it's the game that my opponents usually play the worst.

You left out at least one key piece of information, Rick: is there an ante in this game? If there is an ante of $200-300, you're not going to be able to sit on your hands for very long.

With a single limper, you'd of course raise, hope to get it head-up, and further hope that opponent catches a series of bananas. If you raise now, it is unlikely that either limper will fold, and it is entirely possible that the other low hand and/or the bring-in will come along for the ride. If the players behind you would fold for a raise, they'd probably fold anyway. Furthermore, by raising, you expose yourself to a re-raise by the either of the two limpers or the bring-in. Depending on the opponents, this may and may not be a significant risk. If I'm one of the limpers, it certainly is. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif Anyway, if it is re-raised, you will be committed, and you may well hate your hand on fourth street. One suggestion Ray has in HLSP4AP is that you might limp in late on third street with a big pair and see what develops. That's what I advocate here. It's relatively cheap (not that 10% of your stack is an insignificant investment), and your hand might develop strongly. You might buy some help. Your opponents may bust out. If only one of them catches good, I think you can bet the hand, get it heads-up with some dead money in there as a small favorite. If two of them catch scare cards, you can check and fold and try again.

If your opponents are the sort to limp in apparent raising situations, they might also give you free cards later on if you want them. I think that this is an indication that you should play rather than fold.

The big problem with big pairs in your usual ring game where you've bought in for 20-25 BB is one of reverse implied odds. You will frequently find yourself heads-up against a made low and have to decide whether you want to risk 3 BB to (more than likely) win about 1 BB. You don't have that problem here, as you're close to the felt already.

I think that having the Ace is huge. I probably limp along with an 8 or 9 kicker, too, but the Ace gives you at least three advantages that I can think of: (1) it's one less low card for your opponents to catch, (2) it decreases the chance that an opponent will pair his Ace in the hole (it's pretty likely that one or more of your opponents has an Ace in the hole), (3) it decreases the chance that an opponent will catch an Ace which doesn't pair him, but will scare you off of your hand when it's still good.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Andy,

I think the ante was T300.

Interesting points and analysis regarding limping for T500. If you did this and were raised to T2000 by the low yet to act (or even another high card) would you call or give it up?

BTW, I'm constantly amazed at the quality of the responses here. Hero will enjoy this thread too and we appreciate everyone's effort.

Regards,

Rick

[Andy B]

Interesting points and analysis regarding limping for T500. If you did this and were raised to T2000 by the low yet to act (or even another high card) would you call or give it up?

I'd panic.

If it's raised and re-raised by low cards, I think I give up. If it's raised behind me by a high card (lower than a King), I think I re-raise when it gets back to me. I think I'm getting enough equity from, say, a pair of Queens to make it worth my while.

If my opponents are completely dizzy and somehow both of the limpers fold to the completion, leaving it heads-up, I call and then bet into the other guy no matter what he catches. If he pairs and folds, he's making a mistake, and I've got to give him that chance.

If it's raised by a low hand and called in two spots (not an unlikely scenario), I think it's pretty close among the three options. I just might raise, hoping that the original raiser will come over the top, possibly knocking the other guys out. I think calling is viable, although you're kind of pot-stuck if you do. Folding is probably the best option, though. Your scoop prospects aren't good. On the other hand, you are a slight money favorite against three typical low hands, and you're going to have to gamble pretty soon.

If it's raised by the remaining low card and called in three spots (including the bring-in), I think I give up.

I'm a lot less sure about my response here than I was about my first one. Not that I'm entirely convinced that I was right that time, either.

Another good thing about that Ace kicker: you can still make a low! Hey, I've done it (and had it done to me).

[AlanBostick]

Two competing considerations are at work here:

First, in split-pot tournaments like Omaha/8 and stud/8, you should make your all-in stands earlier than you would in a one-way game. This is because, all too often, you wind up head-up and split the blinds or antes, leaving you almost as short-stacked as before making your stand. This is an argument for making a stand with (AK)K here.

Secondly, it's a multiway pot with a bunch of low limpers. This is my least favorite way to play brick pairs. Even though there's already something more than the antes to sweeten the pot, you aren't that big a favorite to win the high half. What's more, your hand is obviously a high hand; everyone will know where they are at with respect to you.

With 5000 in chips, antes of 300 and a bring-in of 500, you've got enough chips to last for about 14 more hands (more if you get lucky by not getting hit with bring-ins) ... equivalent to more than two rounds of blinds at a hold'em table, six-handed. And playable stud/8 hands come at something like one in four or one in five.

It's really close. I don't like folding here, and I don't like playing. (I don't like AndyB's notion of trailing in. If I'm playing any hand, I'm looking for an all-in situation, and I'm raising to get as much money into the pot on the early streets.)

I think it comes down to this: if my goal is to maximize earnings, I think I lay the hand down and wait for either a better all-in hand or for someone else to bust out ahead of me. If my goal is to win the tournament, the (small) possibility of scooping when low hands all miss makes this an attractive opportunity to play, I'm raising with the intent of getting all-in as soon as I can.

[Marco Trevix]

Very interesting points as usual.
I appreciate very much this thread since this was one of my two killing hands that have gotten me out of the WSOP.

In my opinion Kings is the worst playing hand at hi/lo stud tourneys.
In your situation you are in a big trouble since many low cards entered the pot. With your stack I'll tend either to play aggressive or to fold. Your goal is to build the stack and not to merely survive. Limping is a decent move if two of your "low card" opponents (suppose 3 low cards entered) catch a brick on 4th and are able to release the hand (this scenario appears few times at on-line tournaments...). Low cards players had a lot of chips?

My rate in the situation described is folding : 60%, limping: 25%, raising: 15%

Marco

[Bill Murphy]

Raise, call all-in if re-raised, and its not close.

[Bill Murphy]

"BTW, this must not have been a high dollar event, as it is rare to have so many limpers in such a tourney. However, stranger things have happened than having multiple limpers in the money at the WSOP or the like."

I was shocked at the overall horrible quality of play in WSOP Stud8 tourneys.

[Andy B]

I didn't really expect anyone to like my notion of limping in, and I'm not convinced that I was right. I will say a little bit more about it. In tournaments, one usually has a raise-or-fold mentality. The reason for this is that you have a good chance to pick up the ante/blind money. In this case, since there are a couple of limpers, you have almost no chance of picking up the antes. In stud/8, the primary reason that you usually raise with a pair of Kings is to thin the field. While it is possible that your raise will fold someone who would have called for $500 but not $2000, you're not going to thin the field enough for my taste. I'm not saying you have no reason to raise, but a lot of the usual reasons for raising are diminished.

On the other hand, if Murphy says raise, raise.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Bill,

Some other excellent posters made the case for limping. Why do you think that it is a raise and not close?

Regards,

Rick