river play: I think going for overcalls was right here

[Felipe]

Villain was fairly tight for nano limits. I called the river and was ready to release to a raise. Would you raise instead of call? Or Fold and Fume.

PokerStars Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Felipe is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.05.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 :#A500AF(--Villain)/ raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Felipe 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO (poster) calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 :#A500AF(--Villain)/ caps</font>, Felipe calls, CO calls, BB calls.

Flop: (16.40 SB) T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">--Villain bets</font>, Felipe calls, CO calls, BB calls.

/images/graemlins/diamond.gifcall now, hoping to raise a turn bet.

Turn: (10.20 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">--Villain bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Felipe raises</font>, CO calls, BB calls, --Villain calls.

River: (18.20 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">--Villain bets</font>, Felipe calls, CO folds, BB calls.

Final Pot: 21.20 BB

[hemstock]

Just raise the flop

And I would be worried if I hold the best hand before going for ocercalls.

[cold_cash]

I think I like it.

[Felipe]

The pot is very large at the flop. If I raise the flop, it's very likely everybody will call. They will be getting 19:2 on their calls. That's close to 10:1, enough for a gut shot (a lone Jack, or Queen) to call profitably. Raising here doesn't protect my hand. If it doesn't get reraised, the turn will have 12 BB in it. If it's checked to me and I bet, I give 13:1 pot odds, almost enough for 3 or 3.5 outters to call profitably.

If I wait for the turn to raise, the pot will be 10 BB, the bet will come from my right, and I can raise. Then other people will be getting 13:2 (around 7:1) on their calls, making it harder for hands (like gutshots, low pairs) to call profitably. I'd like to induce mistakes, and one mistake is to bet into me again on the turn. A second mistake, is to call my turn raise without the proper pot odds. If I raise the flop, I miss out on all of these opportunities to protect my hand and my equity. Maybe I should have said all of this on my original posting.

Villain is tight. If my read is right, he's hit the board, and i know he'll bet the turn. I'll call the flop because I know a bet will come from my right. What did you think of my river play? Can you elaborate?

[hemstock]

Yeah and if you just call the flop, even 44s and 55s can call profitably. Make them face 2 cold.

[Felipe]

no. I shouldn't worry about the 1-1.5 outers hitting their miracle cards.

[hemstock]

[ QUOTE ]
no. I shouldn't worry about the 1-1.5 outers hitting their miracle cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok big guy.
NH then

[Felipe]

/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Felipe]

shameless bump.

[SavageMiser]

Even on the turn facing two cold they are getting odds to chase everything with eight outs or more. They're not making any mistakes, even if you are trying to induce them.

River ... raising doesn't make any sense. Doesn't seem to be that hard a call with the pot so big.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
Even on the turn facing two cold they are getting odds to chase everything with eight outs or more. They're not making any mistakes, even if you are trying to induce them.


[/ QUOTE ]
what about hands with 4/5 outs?

[fluxrad]

Who folds for two bets on the river that you don't already beat with TPTK?

And you need to raise that flop.

[Fantam]

Nice explanation for your flop check and turn raise.

I also prefer going for overcalls on the river to raising villain's unexpected donk bet.

[gharp]

I think this hand is very well played.

Soooooo.....A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
I think this hand is very well played.

Soooooo.....A/images/graemlins/heart.gif Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very Good! A /images/graemlins/heart.gifJ /images/graemlins/heart.gif though...

To the fellow that said raising the turn doesn't induce mistakes - what alternatives do you suggest?

[bozlax]

This is all fine by way of explanation. The problem is, you don't know what kind of draw you're protecting against, and depending on what it is you might not be able to protect, regardless. Also, since there are draws out there, you should be getting money into the pot while you likely have the best hand, not giving them the opportunity to draw against your hand cheaply.

Edited for stupidity.

[scotty34]

[ QUOTE ]
no. I shouldn't worry about the 1-1.5 outers hitting their miracle cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible reasoning. You just said you like to induce mistakes, not allow people to make profitable calls.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no. I shouldn't worry about the 1-1.5 outers hitting their miracle cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible reasoning. You just said you like to induce mistakes, not allow people to make profitable calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

People calling with underpairs or backdoor draws are calling unprofitably as it is. Any other reasonable draw will be correct calling two on the flop in this big pot. I think more important is the fact that we're pretty much never folding anyone on the flop even if we raise.

This is great example of waiting for the turn to raise. We face everyone to face two bets cold on the turn, which 1) Is a great raise for value 2) Puts everyone to a tough decision. Now we either make them pay to outdraw us, or even better, get someone with a hand like KJ to fold incorrecty b/c they might think "[censored] this guy must have KK".

[Felipe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no. I shouldn't worry about the 1-1.5 outers hitting their miracle cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible reasoning. You just said you like to induce mistakes, not allow people to make profitable calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I cannot protect my hand on the flop. But I can on the turn. That is why I believe calling the flop, raising the turn is slightly better.

If I just call the flop, e.body is getting 18:1 on their calls, If I raise they are getting 10:1. I cannot protect my hand.

If it gets checked to me on the turn, i'm in even worse shape. I've got three opponenets calling one bet at the turn, granting them VERY CHEAP CARDS all the while! (13:1 at the turn) Instead of giving cheap cards on the flop ONLY, i give them cheap cards on TWO streets! I *CAN* allow them to make an unprofitable calls, but it's likely I will only be able to if I do not raise on the flop.