2+2 nano table hand [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

Greg J

09-16-2005, 10:51 PM

Despite the stakes, we are taking this game seriously. It's total TAG -- probably the toughest hold em game I've ever been in. This was also the most fun playing poker I've had in ages -- thanks guys.

I don't think my play here is nearly as interesting as that of McNeese (my fellow Louisianian). I was afraid of being outkicked here, but we ended up spliting the pot. Sorry to give away the ending, he had ATs in clubs. What do you think of his play and mine?

On the surface this hand seems totally boring I know, but for some reason I can't get it out of my head. Sorry if you think this is kinda dull -- indulge me please.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Greg is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO (McNeese72 ) posts a blind of $0.02.
3 folds, Greg raises, 2 folds, CO :#A500AF(McNeese72 ) (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB (bottomset) calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
bottomset checks, Greg bets, McNeese72 calls, bottomset calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
bottomset checks, Greg bets, McNeese72 calls, bottomset calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
bottomset checks, Greg bets, McNeese72 calls, bottomset folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Comments on anything on any and all streets appreciated.

numeri

09-16-2005, 10:58 PM

I think he played it well with his kicker. He makes the most from you if you have a high PP (but not AA obviously) or one of the weaker A's like A6 or A7, but losing the least to AJ+.

My only concern is what bottomset is drawing to (maybe something like J/images/graemlins/spade.gif8/images/graemlins/spade.gif?). It might be worth a raise to drive him out on the flop.

istewart

09-16-2005, 11:01 PM

Who is in between you and McNeese? I think this is important as it will change your raising range.

Without knowing I think McNeese should 3-bet preflop.

hemstock

09-16-2005, 11:02 PM

He should throw in a raise somewhere

istewart

09-16-2005, 11:08 PM

I think he definitely needs to raise the flop the way it played out. Bottomset has a straight draw or a 5-outer on this flop a lot I would imagine.

Greg J

09-16-2005, 11:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Who is in between you and McNeese? I think this is important as it will change your raising range.

[/ QUOTE ]
They are not cupcakes! 2 TAGS -- brown trouts. One is PoKher -- I forget the other, but he is no slouch.

DavidC

09-17-2005, 11:26 AM

Hmm... I'm curious now about what bottomset had... JT? 87?

Hope your relatives are alright, Greg.

Entity

09-17-2005, 11:31 AM

I think he played preflop pretty badly (I'd 3-bet if you've been out of line or are easy to manipulate and fold otherwise). In his case I'd recommend raising the flop to force bottomset to make a decision. On an A89 board that certainly needs to be considered. If bs folds and you call, he can check behind on the turn and call a river bet comfortably against you.

Guthrie

09-17-2005, 11:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Who is in between you and McNeese? I think this is important as it will change your raising range.

[/ QUOTE ]
They are not cupcakes! 2 TAGS -- brown trouts. One is PoKher -- I forget the other, but he is no slouch.

[/ QUOTE ]
That was me and I was robbed!

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.02.
3 folds, MP1 raises, 2 folds, CO (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Greg J

09-17-2005, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hope your relatives are alright, Greg.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks. No one I know died. My sister in law and her husband had to move away though -- they lived in Biloxi. I went there last weekend. I used to live in the area and it is really surreal seeing that kind of destruction in places where you used to hang out. I'm sure my old apartment in Moss Point got flooded, but I didn't check.

Greg J

09-17-2005, 12:24 PM

He did post in the CO. I don't disagree with a 3 bet, but you still consider folding this?

Entity

09-17-2005, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He did post in the CO. I don't disagree with a 3 bet, but you still consider folding this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I missed that he posted a blind. He should still strongly consider raising the flop. A PF 3-bet is a very close decision; I'd 3-bet AJs there.

Greg J

09-17-2005, 12:57 PM

I realize now that I kinda took a liberty asking people to scrutize the play of another player (as well as my own). I hope McNeese72 does not mind. I think I should have asked his permission re: posting this hand. Sorry if this was a bit out of line.

POKhER

09-17-2005, 03:37 PM

I'd of raised the flop personally(Being mcneese72). Oh and probably 3bet although he posted so its not really a "Cold call, fold, 3bet" situation.

Greg, What would you have done if he did raise the flop? Then i can continue my line to see you reaction?

Greg J

09-17-2005, 03:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Greg, What would you have done if he did raise the flop? Then i can continue my line to see you reaction?

[/ QUOTE ]
I was wondering that. I'm thinking: 1) check call the turn and bet fold the river, or 2) check call both streets.

aK13

09-17-2005, 03:53 PM

I don't much like the river bet. I don't see him paying off a worse hand very often (if you guys are playing seriously).

Redd

09-17-2005, 03:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't much like the river bet. I don't see him paying off a worse hand very often (if you guys are playing seriously).

[/ QUOTE ]

He could quite easily be WA/WBing Greg with a weaker ace IMO. Although I'd agree that he should have raised the flop with 222 still in.

POKhER

09-17-2005, 04:13 PM

THE SITUATION I AM NOW DISCUSSION ON A DIFFERENT ACTION BY MCNEESE
PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Greg is MP1 with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO (McNeese72 ) posts a blind of $0.02.
3 folds, Greg raises, 2 folds, CO :#A500AF(McNeese72 ) (poster) calls, 2 folds, BB (bottomset) calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
bottomset checks, Greg bets, McNeese72 Raises, bottomset calls......

After numerous retypes of replys i'm finding i'm to affected by knowing the result to analyse MCNeese's play or recommend a line i'd take in your position.

Also after 3hrs sleep and a 12 hours of work i'm not in the best mind frame.

I shall come back to this thread tommorow if its still alive and see if i can think straight then.

One thing i would say/ask though greg is:

Do you 3bet the flop due to no aggression shown preflop? I know most of us that game raised/reraised any hands worth playing so the chances of high PP, AK/AQ are low.

AJ, AT, 22 - 88(Maybe 99), suited connectors? any two suited cards? are ideas of hands preflop?

After the *IMAGINARY SCENARIO* flop raise, set/medium pair/Ace+Weak kicker(2 pair due to other two cards on board?).

I think this would warrent a 3bet, Do you agree? fold to a cap?

A raise would certainly be confusing however after his preflop play so maybe its not such a good idea to discuss(To many hands etc)?

I RAISE THE FLOP IF I AM MCNEESE

Cya tommorow for continued discussion(not bed time yet... but i wont post much tonight).

aK13

09-17-2005, 07:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't much like the river bet. I don't see him paying off a worse hand very often (if you guys are playing seriously).

[/ QUOTE ]

He could quite easily be WA/WBing Greg with a weaker ace IMO. Although I'd agree that he should have raised the flop with 222 still in.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many weaker aces are out there? 7,6,3,2 -- all other are beating him.

Villain (if thinking) should not call a river bet with KK-TT, as Greg shouldn't be betting the river without a big A. Thus, frequently Greg will be called/raised by better hands more often than weaker ones call his river bet.

DavidC

09-18-2005, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I realize now that I kinda took a liberty asking people to scrutize the play of another player (as well as my own). I hope McNeese72 does not mind. I think I should have asked his permission re: posting this hand. Sorry if this was a bit out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

People do that here a lot, especially on the high stakes forums. Generally if you just say "Two known 2+2ers" and don't say there names, you've CYA'ed perfectly. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

DavidC

09-18-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't much like the river bet. I don't see him paying off a worse hand very often (if you guys are playing seriously).

[/ QUOTE ]

He could quite easily be WA/WBing Greg with a weaker ace IMO. Although I'd agree that he should have raised the flop with 222 still in.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many weaker aces are out there? 7,6,3,2 -- all other are beating him.

Villain (if thinking) should not call a river bet with KK-TT, as Greg shouldn't be betting the river without a big A. Thus, frequently Greg will be called/raised by better hands more often than weaker ones call his river bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this leading us to check-call the river due to pot size?

bottomset

09-18-2005, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... I'm curious now about what bottomset had... JT? 87?

Hope your relatives are alright, Greg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had 87 /images/graemlins/spade.gif almost got there

DavidC

09-18-2005, 12:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... I'm curious now about what bottomset had... JT? 87?

Hope your relatives are alright, Greg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had 87 /images/graemlins/spade.gif almost got there

[/ QUOTE ]

The Trogdor avatar guy, Numeri, I think, came up with the idea of giving you spades with a pair as your draw; good job on his part. With 87o you still would have called that turn bet, though, right?

bottomset

09-18-2005, 12:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... I'm curious now about what bottomset had... JT? 87?

Hope your relatives are alright, Greg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had 87 /images/graemlins/spade.gif almost got there

[/ QUOTE ]

The Trogdor avatar guy, Numeri, I think, came up with the idea of giving you spades with a pair as your draw; good job on his part. With 87o you still would have called that turn bet, though, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah closing the action getting 6.75/1 but I woulda folded preflop with 87o, 87s is prob pretty thin, since its an MP1 openraise

DavidC

09-18-2005, 04:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmm... I'm curious now about what bottomset had... JT? 87?

Hope your relatives are alright, Greg.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had 87 /images/graemlins/spade.gif almost got there

[/ QUOTE ]

The Trogdor avatar guy, Numeri, I think, came up with the idea of giving you spades with a pair as your draw; good job on his part. With 87o you still would have called that turn bet, though, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah closing the action getting 6.75/1 but I woulda folded preflop with 87o, 87s is prob pretty thin, since its an MP1 openraise

[/ QUOTE ]

Whoops, I meant 87s not spades, not 87o. /images/graemlins/blush.gif