Excellent Advice. Just One Thing . . .

[Poker Cat]

Life can be so unfair.
Where was an author like Ed Miller when I was 26?
To be that smart, so expert at poker -- and be able to explain it so effortlessly, would seem enough of a lucky streak at the genetic lottery. To have wisdom as well? Like I said, not fair.

I almost hate to do this. But there is one point with which I vehemently, savagely, disagree.

If you are in college right now, and find that you are making tons of dough playing poker online, I say QUIT COLLEGE AND PLAY POKER. $50,000 Hummers and $400 hotel rooms are scams, yes. Well guess what -- so is a $300,000 "ijication". College will not improve your social status, "prepare you for working", or even provide much "general knowledge" (and who the hell needs that, anyway?) If you want to socialize, go meet some people for hiking or tennis or whatever. If you want to learn a trade, then go to trade school. Want knowledge? Read a freakin'. You can buy several for 300 grand.

Although Ed is clearly wise for his age, I think this is the one area where his youthful bias shows. Admittedly, social institutions like college seem much more promising to the young. As John Mayer explains, "There's no such thing as the real world -- just a lie you got to rise above."

By the way, if you find yourself in the aforementioned dilemma, how did you learn to play poker? Did you go to Poker College for four years? Took the online course at Poker Tech? Didn't think so. You taught yourself. That's what smart, motivated people have always done. When the next opportunity arises, you'll do it again.

Put down the class list, get online and play. Work, save, buy a house. Read, watch, keep up. You'll do fine.

In case you were wondering, yes, I do have a B.A. in Economics. I've never used it. Make me an offer and it's yours.

[chezlaw]

Where was an author like Ed Miller when you were 26? !!!

Where was online poker when I was at college working 20+ hours a week in a pub for near minimum wage? /images/graemlins/mad.gif

I wouldn't have missed college for anything but its not either or. College was a breeze, playing nearly full-time whilst at college should not be much of a problem.

chez

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]
Life can be so unfair.
Where was an author like Ed Miller when I was 26?
To be that smart, so expert at poker -- and be able to explain it so effortlessly, would seem enough of a lucky streak at the genetic lottery. To have wisdom as well? Like I said, not fair.

I almost hate to do this. But there is one point with which I vehemently, savagely, disagree.

If you are in college right now, and find that you are making tons of dough playing poker online, I say QUIT COLLEGE AND PLAY POKER. $50,000 Hummers and $400 hotel rooms are scams, yes. Well guess what -- so is a $300,000 "ijication". College will not improve your social status, "prepare you for working", or even provide much "general knowledge" (and who the hell needs that, anyway?) If you want to socialize, go meet some people for hiking or tennis or whatever. If you want to learn a trade, then go to trade school. Want knowledge? Read a freakin'. You can buy several for 300 grand.

Although Ed is clearly wise for his age, I think this is the one area where his youthful bias shows. Admittedly, social institutions like college seem much more promising to the young. As John Mayer explains, "There's no such thing as the real world -- just a lie you got to rise above."

By the way, if you find yourself in the aforementioned dilemma, how did you learn to play poker? Did you go to Poker College for four years? Took the online course at Poker Tech? Didn't think so. You taught yourself. That's what smart, motivated people have always done. When the next opportunity arises, you'll do it again.

Put down the class list, get online and play. Work, save, buy a house. Read, watch, keep up. You'll do fine.

In case you were wondering, yes, I do have a B.A. in Economics. I've never used it. Make me an offer and it's yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker Cat,

I just retired from a career teaching in an urban state university. A very large percentage of my students were so-called non-traditional students, that is those well over the usual 18-21 age bracket. I can tell you that for many of them going back to school was a huge struggle. They juggled jobs (sometimes quite responsible and well-paying ones) and family obligations along with their courseloads. Why would they bother to do this if that college education and the degree they were trying to earn weren't all that valuable and worthwhile? One big reason was credentialing. I taught tech writing, and many of my students were self-taught in the computer/IT fields. They had hit a ceiling and were unable to advance without a degree even though they had the expertise for a higher level position. Same was true of students who were "para-engineers"; they had the skills but not the credentials. Others found that they needed/wanted to change fields and needed further education to do so. I think this is going to be relevant to those contemplating dropping out of school to multi-table poker online. That is simply not a life's work. Even if online poker does continue to be popular, lucrative, and quasi-legal (and I think that is a very big if), it is a young folk's job. Sitting in your underpants and playing 8 tables of hold'em is going to get more or less old more or less fast. I think a Plan B is called for, and for most people Plan B would include a college degree. And a college degree is much easier to get when one is 18-21 and without family obligations than when one is 10-15 years or more older.

And, yes, my dear, college will definitely improve your social status--especially if you go to a prestigious one. I have many friends who grew up in working class families who are now happily ensconced in the upper-middle class due to their Ivy League educations. It is, I think, obvious that the single most important factor in raising Bill Clinton's social status was graduating from Yale....Even going to U of A/Little Rock would have boosted his status considerably from the status accrued by his family of origin.

I am definitely with Ed on this--stay in school.

Hi,
Very, very interesting debate going on here...

I would have to say that getting one's degree is very important, even if you don't go on to use the degree by getting a job in said field.
An interesting thing does happen when one spends their crucial developmental years (18-25) in college. Their IQs (general intelligence - ability to adapt, learn, etc.) go up.
All the papers, tests and quizzes, and presentations you do, all the reading studying, etc. actually makes you smarter (contrary to what you may think!). Yeah it hurts, yeah it's tough sometimes, but it's also very rewarding...
I think
it'd be a mistake to quit college if you think you can finish off the 4 year degree - It's definitely a HUGE mistake to
quit college to play poker full time if you only have a year or 2 left IMO...
finish the degree - you won't regret it (and you might really regret it if you don't).
There are so
many people who wish they were smart enough, had enough discipline, etc. (not to mention a scholarship or well-off parents to help pay for part (or all!) of the tuition) to be able to have a go at a 4 year Degree...and to just quit...when you've been given the blessing/opportunity to better yourself...doesn't make sense...

Unless you really hate school and don't care about bettering yourself...then quit...but this is a really immature attitude.
And if you're making $500,000+ a year playing poker online, then quit!
BAnk of few years of this and you're set...but I don't think that this applies to many...certainly not me!

To share my experiences, I completed my degree and am very glad I did. It's allowed me to start Grad. school and to get a job that I simply could not have w/out it!
But now that I have my 4 year and am a few classes away from finishing my Master's, I am faced with the same dilemma I'm sure many others are...
I currently make more money playing poker than I do at my full-time job...(IN MY SPARE TIME!).
Do I quit my job? Well, like a few others have talked about on here,
a 9 to 5 is absolutely killer for some...And I, personally, do not like my job...
I am trying to keep it as long as I can, but the more poker I play and the better I get at the game, the more money I'm making online...
I really am at the point where I can't justify waking up every morning and going into a job I don't like, with people I don't like (or who don't like me)...
So this is my problem...

Mason, or Dr. Al or any of the experts' advice welcome...Should I quit my job that I dont' really like and play more poker?
I already have my 4 year degree, I'm 25 yrs. old, and just "on the fence"
about making the jump to quitting my job and making poker my main source of income (even though, when you think about it - it already IS MY MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME, as I now make more money per month than I do at my full-time job! significantly more!).
It's a stressful and boring office job (as I'm sure many of you guys know all about).
I make more playing poker in my spare time and I am confident I can make even more
if I had no 9 to 5 job all week...(and no, I can't play poker at my desk at work!!!).
I could attack the late night games, sleep in every morning, take off whatever days I want to, go on vacation whenever (and for as long as) I want to, and the list goes on and on...

So, in summary, I think a college degree has so much value (intrinsic value) that goes beyond the doors it
opens for you...
It allows you to go to Grad. School, to maybe teach someday in your field of study - it elevates your social standing - and the process of
getting one actually raises your IQ!
Plus
the friends you make in college, the parties, the fun, the teachers, the relationships, the sporting events, all of it - they are truly priceless memories, and I'm sure, many, many people consider the time spent in college to be the best 4 years of their life.
Let the 8 tabling of 5/10, 10/20, etc. wait until later...

My (long) 2 cents,
Best regards,
Joe M.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Mason, or Dr. Al or any of the experts' advice welcome...Should I quit my job that I dont' really like and play more poker?
I already have my 4 year degree, I'm 25 yrs. old, and just "on the fence"
about making the jump to quitting my job and making poker my main source of income (even though, when you think about it - it already IS MY MAIN SOURCE OF INCOME, as I now make more money per month than I do at my full-time job! significantly more!).
It's a stressful and boring office job (as I'm sure many of you guys know all about).
I make more playing poker in my spare time and I am confident I can make even more
if I had no 9 to 5 job all week...(and no, I can't play poker at my desk at work!!!).
I could attack the late night games, sleep in every morning, take off whatever days I want to, go on vacation whenever (and for as long as) I want to, and the list goes on and on...

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two threads on quitting your day job in this forum following two articles by Dr Al in the magazine.

chez

[Mason Malmuth]

Hi Cat:

I don't agree. A good college education will help you think better about many aspects of your life as time goes on. It's sometimes hard to see that when you're young, but I now see it very clearly. I have no doubt that if it wasn't for the years that I spent at Virginia Tech, I wouldn't be anywhere near as successful as I am now.

Poker can wait a couple of years, and it will still be there. Besides, there is no reason why you can't spend some of your free time playing poker and enjoying it.

Best wishes,
Mason

Hey chez,

Yeah, I've checked out those other threads and dropped a few comments relating to them in my above post.

You're the guy who I can relate to! Who talked about it being unhealthy to wake
up out of a peaceful sleep to an alarm clock, commute for an hour or 2 a day in the pollution and traffic, sit in front of a comp. screen all day - I agree totally.
It hurts.
Somedays (even my days off) I get sad/depressed when I even think about it...it seems like such a waste of a life to do this - and some of the guys (and gals) I work with have done it for 30, even 40 years...the same routene...for 50-60 grand a year gross...

I was kindof getting at the difference b/w my (i guess our)situation
as compared to someone who still hasn't finished college yet.
Also wanted some of the experts's advice for someone who has already finished college, entered the work-a-day world and find it's not for them...more of a "no-brainer" to turn to poker full time...

You play full time now? Do you regret leaving your job?

Another thing I'd find (and am finding difficult) is what it is to tell ppl. (family and friends in particular) I do for a living...(if I made the switch...).
Poker is not really accepted in general/as a job...anyone I know if you told them you play for a living would think you were a loser/degenerate/a "gambler" with a problem/etc.
I know this
isn't the case, and any winning poker player knows this...but you can't make someone else understand that you can make steady money at it - they
just won't believe you or think (no matter how much you made) that you'll lose everything 1 day when you decide to "risk it all" or something...(c.o. Rounders w/ Matt Damon).
My Mom and Dad esp. would have a tough time accepting their son as a pro-poker player...
I want them and others to think highly of me and I don't think they can do that if
all I did was play poker (no matter how much I made, well, unless I made millions ...)

Let me know how things are going w/ you. Was your job like the movie Office Space?
TPS Reports need shuffling?
lol

Take care, JoeM.

[Buccaneer]

How many Hummers do you have? I can assure you that you will get many more in college.

[chezlaw]

Hey Joe

[ QUOTE ]
You play full time now? Do you regret leaving your job?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am certain that its just about the best thing I've ever done. I haven't been this happy about day to day life since I left college 18 years ago and I have had a good carear by most standards. Leaving work has been like having a heavy weight lifted from my shoulders. No regrets unless the money runs out.

I don't want to advise anyone to go pro and hope no-one reads into the disagreement with Dr Al that its an easy option. Play a lot and listen to others but work it out for yourself.

The two key issues are whether the lifestyle suites you and whether its viable (three issues if you have a partner).

Good luck

chez

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
I say QUIT COLLEGE AND PLAY POKER.

[/ QUOTE ]

If the only thing you learn in college is "how to learn", your education has been well paid for!

Some of the other more important "things" you should learn in college are...
1. The rules of how to socialize
2. The importance of deadlines
3. That you aren't the smartest person on earth
4. That you have to work hard to get what you want
5. That learning is a "lifetime" experience
6. How to keep a schedule (and still party all night)
7. A competitive spirit and the value of teamwork

Poker and college are not mutually exclusive, and any suggestion that people not go to college is -EV.

[ QUOTE ]
In case you were wondering, yes, I do have a B.A. in Economics. I've never used it. Make me an offer and it's yours.

[/ QUOTE ]

From this I take it that you've not been profitable enough at poker to have to worry about investing your winnings! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Peter666]

"I have many friends who grew up in working class families who are now happily ensconced in the upper-middle class due to their Ivy League educations. It is, I think, obvious that the single most important factor in raising Bill Clinton's social status was graduating from Yale"

What a bunch of losers.

It is better to be young and single and get blown by skinny pretty girls than to be an old adulterer and get blown by fat ugly ones like Monica Lewinsky. That, and the fact that the chances of all these "successful" people suffering in Eternal Hell is very great.

PokerCat,

You are smart enough to do whatever the hell you want. If somebody seriously needs to be TOLD on how to manage their life outside of gambling, then things have already failed. You are not one of them. Go forth and prosper.

[LittleOldLady]

[ QUOTE ]
It is better to be young and single and get blown by skinny pretty girls than to be an old adulterer and get blown by fat ugly ones like Monica Lewinsky. That, and the fact that the chances of all these "successful" people suffering in Eternal Hell is very great.



[/ QUOTE ]

Peter666, good luck on staying young and getting blown by pretty skinny girls (since when is skinny pretty, but I digress). With your attitude, in a few years you will be lucky to get blown by anyone you didn't pay.

My point was that 8-tabling in your underpants is a young man's game. Now, you may think that it is better to be young, but the fact of the matter is that the only way to avoid getting older is to die prematurely. Like it or not, you will age, and if you are wise, you will plan your life to cover the entire life cycle. That is where having a good education is indispensable.

I doubt if Bill Clinton is shaking in his boots about the prospect of being consigned to an Eternal Hell which is highly unlikely to exist. If Eternal Hell is the place for old adulterers who get blown by fat, ugly women, Bill will have lots of company....

[Peter666]

"If Eternal Hell is the place for old adulterers who get blown by fat, ugly women, Bill will have lots of company...."

a better alternative is to:

"die prematurely"

My point is that much advice is given from the perspective of people who may hold completely different values, ideas and meanings of life. Unless two people share the same values, most advice is useless.

I learn poker to make money from the convenience of my own home. Stu Ungar played poker to feed his habits. If people want to judge him for it, it is their problem, not his. People can and will choose what they want. What we agree upon is to learn to play the best poker we can.

Also it is easy for people to give advice once they have lots of money or status. But I doubt it was very pleasurable for many of them to attain it. So while it is nice to get advice from well meaning people, they must realize that it will usually go unheeded no matter what. This makes it useless. The view from the trenches is much different from the view of the General.

[BillC]

I agree that playing poker full time is a young man's game (or for retirees). I have the freedom to play a lot of poker b/c of my flexible academic hours. But I don't. It is too tedious and boring. I do like poker but not full time. I like poker theory too. But compared with other activites, it doesn't compare. It doesn't contribute much to humanity, human knowledge, the general good, etc. It is not totally trivial but not really that deep either. It's a freakin' card game, not quantum mechanics.

If you are a really bright kid, why not just get an advanced degree that will pay a good and stable income. Just get an MBA, medical or law degree. If you want ot be a bum, just get a Ph.D. and play poker on the side. What is the big deal?

[Ed Miller]

[ QUOTE ]
So while it is nice to get advice from well meaning people, they must realize that it will usually go unheeded no matter what. This makes it useless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is advice that will USUALLY go unheeded USELESS?

[Sniper]

[ QUOTE ]
My point was that 8-tabling in your underpants is a young man's game.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is not necessarily true, depending on how you define "young". The initial gaming/computer literate generation is now in their 40's and fully skilled to 8-table. I'm also certain that there are many women who would disagree that its only a "man's" game.

[Python49]

[ QUOTE ]
But compared with other activites, it doesn't compare. It doesn't contribute much to humanity, human knowledge, the general good, etc. It is not totally trivial but not really that deep either. It's a freakin' card game, not quantum mechanics.


[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree wholeheartedly. Poker has opened my eyes to a few things just about life in general. One of the main ones being that to really succeed at something you have to work hard and LEARN abuot what it is that makes other people who do it successful. 5 months ago I only had $50 to my name and found this website. I was the typical player that thought they were good or whatever but really did not know much at all. I then spent countless hours READING everything I could on this website and soaking up AS MUCH KNOWLEDGE as I could. I practiced my game, refined my skills, talked with other successful players and found out what it was that I was doing wrong to correct my play. This is the whole process of LEARNING... and it taught me that to really prosper in something you have to put in the time and be willing to learn, be humble enough to accept criticism from others, and to put to use the stuff you have learned. I feel this carries over with MOSTLY every thing else in life that people want to get good at. The time I spent researching, reading, practicing, all was a learning process and I feel like I am 30x more knowledgable about this than I was 5 months ago, and the growth in my bankroll has proven this to be true. Now how does this help in other aspects of life? Well think about it, anything that people become great at what do they do? They follow a similar process. If you want to be great at investing you have to fill your brain with as much knowledge as possible. Learn as much as you can about it and even talk to other people whom are successful at it just like in poker. You then have to learn on your own through trial and error, read books, etc. This is the same process by which people learn.

I can tell you first hand this is not the learning process that has gotten me through school on great academics.. and the average student in college is not "learning" either, they are just doing what they can to get by. Granted, some kids actually are smart enough to understand what it means to learn... alot of people getting those college degrees can get one and not be able to tell you diddly squat about what they learned in their courses. Ive always gotten great marks in school and never really truly felt like I learned a DAMNED thing. Im here on academic scholarship and barely study, all I do is study the night before exams and get the A, this is not true learning... this is just memorization of facts.

I feel like poker for me was a true learning process... and I feel like I could really teach alot because I understand the principles of the game and it is knowledge I have obtained. This same learning process like I said can be applied to plenty of stuff.. learning how to invest, play basketball, gain muscle mass through weight lifting, program computers, etc. I guess what i'm saying is that poker has taught me how to teach myself... i now am beginning to embark on a learning process relating to investing where I will put forth the same time investment in gaining knowledge that I did with poker, read books, read forums online, talk with other successful people in it, and make smart decisions along the way. I feel like ive learned now what kind of effort it really takes to learn something and have success at it. This was not something I feel is taught in college since they deem success based on a score on a test and there are many ways to achieve that high mark without actually learning it for yourself and sustaining the knowledge. I took english literature last semester.... got an A.. i don't remember a damned thing about the class, but if you asked me to explain certain principles in poker such as expected value, standard deviation, variance, bankroll management, I could probably write essays on the topics.

[Peter666]

Because those who truly need it, won't use it. And those who are smart enough to acknowledge its intelligence, are doing their own financial planning already, customized to suit them.

But it is interesting to talk about theoretically.

[ QUOTE ]
I can tell you first hand this is not the learning process that has gotten me through school on great academics.. and the average student in college is not "learning" either, they are just doing what they can to get by. Granted, some kids actually are smart enough to understand what it means to learn... alot of people getting those college degrees can get one and not be able to tell you diddly squat about what they learned in their courses. Ive always gotten great marks in school and never really truly felt like I learned a DAMNED thing. Im here on academic scholarship and barely study, all I do is study the night before exams and get the A, this is not true learning... this is just memorization of facts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Education these days follow this... for want of a better word... philosophy of education: Inundate them with facts and hope something sticks long enough to take the finals so they can get their degree. And for what. A piece of paper (or parchment, or whatever) that says they can sit in class for and hour or two at a time and absorb information well enough to regurgitate a minimum of 70% of it back at test time.

That is not an education, that is indoctrination. An education will teach a person to critically think for themselves, not just to repeat what someone else thought sometime in the past, or their teachers or peers ideology. If people were truly educated anymore, this world would be in much better shape than it is.

But, that's a subject for another time.

If you feel the need to go to college, get a degree that is useful, not something that sounds fun that no one wants.

I have a friend whose daughter got a degree in foreign studies (or some such rot). She was thinking it would qualify her for a job in the UN or some other world organization. What she did not realize was in order to get those jobs, she had to have connections. She is now working in a restaurant waiting tables while going to hair dressing school. Another of our friends daughter did that first before going to college and is now making about 60-70k a year and it considering skipping college altogether.

I have somewhere around 200-300 college credits, mostly in engineering and computer science courses. Some earned through CLEP or other bypass methods, some from the Air Force, but most from actual class room. I have no degree, not one. I have been employed with the same company since 1986 and earn a 6 figure income. I am comfortable with my position, I like my job (engineering, by the way, without a degree). I always started school (usually while I was working in a job that required the degree or equivalent I was working towards) with the intention of getting the "credential", but usually ran out of patience with professors who wanted to "teach" ideology instead of whatever they were being paid to teach. Or tenured professors who couldn't teach a grade school subject, much less a college course. And on and on.

All that to say this. Some folks do well in college, some don't. Some will do well playing poker for a living, some won't. Some will teach, some will work at the trades. Some will be doctors and lawyers, and some will dig ditches.

There is no one true path to sucess, including college. College is not the panacea everyone claims it is, it is only one of many paths.

As someone in an earlier post said when asked about advice being useless:

[ QUOTE ]
Because those who truly need it (advice), won't use it. And those who are smart enough to acknowledge its intelligence, are doing their own financial planning already, customized to suit them.

But it is interesting to talk about theoretically.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am 50 years old and looking at retirement. Poker just may (and may not) turn out to be a decent retirement supplement. If not, it will provide an old man with many hours of enjoyment.

My advice is to read all this various advice everyone is giving and use it to make up your own mind. Use it to help you know what is in your own heart and then your path will be clearer.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, just want to say what a great resource this site is. I can't find the words to express my gratitude to the folks who keep giving great advice for us who strive to play better poker.

Thanks and keep up the great work.

[The Legend]

I love this thread. I too feel the emptiness and worthlessness that my college educational experience taught me. I graduated last spring with an EE degree. The truth is I don't know why I even got the damn degree. I got a job now which is full of the previously discussed guys who have been working this crap for twenty to thirty years. If I end up like that, it would be horrible. I believe the reason I stayed and got my degree was because I found no outs, no other way to make good money other then getting the degree. However, I figured someday I'd think of some great idea and start my own business and what not, so it became sort of a backup plan. Poker more or less is slowly becoming that business idea for me now.

However, I must say that looking back, I am glad I went to college and got my degree for all the non-classroom related issues. Most importantly, I've learned a lot about people. Just witnessing them in the classroom, living with a few of them, seeing the common attitudes and concerns of college students, lets you see the world in a new light.

As I previously said, its nice to have a backup plan as well. College really wasn't tough or anything, it was an easy four years. I've learned so much about people and life through those years. I'm not sure if its because of college or my own unique experiences, but I don't regret it.

I guess in the end, if you find absolutely no value out of college, don't do it. I found bare minimum, and had I discovered poker when I was a freshman or sophomore as opposed to halfway through my senior year, I may have dropped out.

Overall, I guess my point is that there is more value to college than the supposed value of education that you get from class(from which I got none), so I'd recommend staying in.

[Poker Cat]

Learning how to learn is certainly worthwhile.
Does it take a four years and a $125,000 college education?

The boundless lauding of the institution of college is more religion than science. Frequently I hear people make a list of worthwhile goals -- learning how to learn, etc. And then jump to the conclusion that college is the best or only way to accomplish those goals. Where is the evidence? I know, I know. Studies show college grads make more money. But that's no proof of causality -- college could simply be a marker for smarter, more ambitious people.

I agree that "learning how to learn" is a critical skill. I also think acquiring it in college is way too late. I certainly didn't learn it there. Poker helped. As Mason wrote in an article, students who wish to excel at poker must spend a lot of time studying and thinking about the game. I found out what the right books were, read them, played, made mistakes, thought about them, reread passages, played some more. I stopped Mason and others occassionally at the Bike and asked a question. College did not teach me this process. It may have taught you, but there are other paths.

As for the self-justifying prof who recommends an Ivy League college for the connections it will get you, I find that offensive. If I want to get a position I haven't earned through cronyism, I'll bribe a politician. They're cheaper.

In any case, I reiterate that my entire rant amounts to no more than a nitpick on Ed's article, which stresses financial discipline. Without it, no amount of income will make you successful.

And that, I am sure, no college can teach you.

[Sniper]

Hi Cat,

There are many different ways to learn the life skills necessary to succeed.

I also strongly believe that the most successful people learn far more out of college than they do while in college.

My point is, that suggesting to people that don't already understand HOW to be successful, that they don't need to go to college, is very bad advice.

Those that can be successful without college already know it, and can make an informed decision for themselves.

[TheGame1020]

I give you credit Cat to post something like this. It seems posters on this forum seem to slam the game that we all love more than it deserves. What if the college student hates school, he hates going to class, and he will do nothing but blow his parents money. Then what?? Should he stay in school and do nothing, NO.

What if he cannot be convinced that school is the right path and choses to [censored] off and not go. He enjoys poker and choses that path. "Just go to school, finish college." is what they all say. But guess what, I know alot of people who went to college and make 50k their whole life and HATE their jobs. Sure not everyone hates their jobs, but A LOT do.

As Ed has even said be [censored] resposible about it though, save your money. Invest it put it away, don't spend money on tons of materialist [censored].

[gildwulf]

I can't believe a John Mayer song was used as evidence to support an argument.

[ThaHero]

[ QUOTE ]
I give you credit Cat to post something like this. It seems posters on this forum seem to slam the game that we all love more than it deserves. What if the college student hates school, he hates going to class, and he will do nothing but blow his parents money. Then what?? Should he stay in school and do nothing, NO.

What if he cannot be convinced that school is the right path and choses to [censored] off and not go. He enjoys poker and choses that path. "Just go to school, finish college." is what they all say. But guess what, I know alot of people who went to college and make 50k their whole life and HATE their jobs. Sure not everyone hates their jobs, but A LOT do.

As Ed has even said be [censored] resposible about it though, save your money. Invest it put it away, don't spend money on tons of materialist [censored].

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I really liked Sniper and Game's post on the issue. They really hit the nail on the head(for my situation anyway).

I'm 21. I don't know how much money I wasted in college, but it was a lot. I wasted money all throughout my academic life, really. I was always capable of A's, but only got C's and B's because other things interested me. Frankly, I found school boring, and a chore. According to my teachers I'm very intelligent, I just don't put forth the effort.

Many times I tried to buckle up and put forth my strongest effort. It would last for about a week, and then I'd fall back into my own little world. I used to spend whole days in the library on campus, but none of it was spent studying really. Most of the time I was reading stuff that interested me.

Seeing that I could educate myself, I dropped out. I was fully confident I could make money on my own without a degree. Poker wasn't even in the picture. I realized that college was EXTREMELY -EV for me, as it would probably take me years upon years to finish(if I ever did). I'm also a twin, so our expenses were double. Enter the Governator, and our expenses are quadrupled. We can no longer afford it without going into major debt...see ya!

I still contemplate going to community college and getting an Associate's Degree just because I know my mom would be proud. I have absolutely no desire to get a 4 year degree. I spent 3 years in college and barely have the amount of units of half that time.

I didn't quit college to go pro. I quit because I knew most of my life that school wasn't for me, and I was wasting my time. I now plan to use poker as a stepping stone to other things, but there's a lot of other moves I'm making as well, so yeah, I have a Plan B and it doesn't include a college degree. Actually, poker might not even be Plan A.

Dunno what the point of my post was. I guess it was just to point out that college isn't the ONLY way to get to wherever it is you want to go. I see college educated adults all the time that are older than me and are miserable. I certainly don't want to end up like them.

[Rick H]

Just a couple thoughts from a geezer:

I got a degree some fifteen years later than most. I got it because I found out that I did not know everything (and I still acknowledge this fact).

My work-life is technical, my degree is in business. Not much of the coursework related to my job. I find that I did not waste my time learning such irrelevant material. I use a little of that knowledge most every day.

Education, like everything else in life, is worth as much as you want it to be worth. As Earl Nightingale once said, "you always get what you settle for".

My advice would be to get as much education as you are willing to work at.

One last point, I find it quite ironic that folks who would slam anyone here for posting advice based on a sample size of 1 ( or even 10). I would suggest anyone thinking of quitting college research the value of a degree in their chosen field using the same statistical analysis as they would use in evaluating a poker hand. There are plenty of statistics available showing how incomes increase in relation to the years of education obtained.

[AceHiStation]

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How many Hummers do you have? I can assure you that you will get many more in college.

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How noones given you credit for this yet is beyond me? Well done, sir.


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I can't believe a John Mayer song was used as evidence to support an argument.

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How it took that long for someone to make that comment is also beyond me. I was reading every word of the OP until I got to the John Mayer quote, and immediately stopped reading that post and moved to the replies.

the great "John Mayer" has also said (though not in a song) that [he] "...had to work so hard and so long to be
able to be doing what he really want -ed/-s to be doing for a living." [And posed the question:] "Why would you ever want to trade in
what you really want to do for a living for something that the odds were in favor of?"

plus he's "dreamy" and can play a mean gee-tar

And so, I must assert that any reference to John Mayer adds mad credibility to a post in my book.

[ThaHero]

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How many Hummers do you have? I can assure you that you will get many more in college.

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How noones given you credit for this yet is beyond me? Well done, sir.

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I meant to say something, but after reading allll the replies I totally forgot about it lol. I really got a kick out of it though, and I agree 100%

[Poker Cat]

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I can't believe a John Mayer song was used as evidence to support an argument.

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Not my first choice either. But a quick check of Abomination and Necrophobic lyrics turned up nothing apt.