Aces flops a set: Now fold???

[HoldEmKillah]

A friend of mine just told me about this hand from a $20+2 SnG on Party from yesterday. Friend is the one holding the aces. *By all accounts, I have every reason to believe the facts are exactly as they happened w/o actually seeing the HH (spelling that out before the doubters start flaming)*

Very early on, Level 1, effective stacks are 800.

Dealt to HERO (button): A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG raises to T125, MP calls, MP+1 calls, HERO calls. BB calls.

FLOP: A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG goes all, MP goes all in, MP1 goes all in.

HERO???

[adanthar]

Hero pushes PF and calls the flop.

Push preflop. Then push the flop and learn not to let 10J have odds to see a flop when you have AA. Besides, you have redraws (but I hope they don't hit).

[se2schul]

Hero calls and gets ready to berrate the guy who pushed all his chips in with 6c7c and turned the flush.

It's a $22 and early, so it's loaded with donks who will put all their money in on a draw. Although I don't doubt that many of the $22 fish are bad enough to call the PF raise with JT, you just can't fold top set at a $22 sng fearing that someone did in fact call with JT.

With AA, you have to jam in as many chips PF as they will call. With that action, they'll call if you bet big or push.

[bawcerelli]

isn't he getting correct pot odds to hit a boat, even if he's already up against a straight?

[the_joker]

Cold calling raises pre-flop with JT is probably not too likely, but I'm sure people do it. It's almost as bad as not reraising with AA. I think I'd call here. You may be ahead and you have plenty of outs if not.

Push pre-flop. End of problems!

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
Dealt to HERO (button): A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifA /images/graemlins/heart.gif

UTG raises to T125, MP calls, MP+1 calls, HERO calls. BB calls.

FLOP: A /images/graemlins/club.gifK /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif

UTG goes all, MP goes all in, MP1 goes all in.

HERO???

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if the hero is against K /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif for the nut flush draw, J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifT /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the flopped straight, and K /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/heart.gif for bottom-two, he still wins the pot 25% of the time. With 3 people all-in ahead of him and 625 in the pot, he's got way better than the right odds to call, even in this worst case scenario.

And if he loses, maybe he'll learn that cold-calling a big raise and then 2 overcallers with AA and 3 opponents pre-flop is bad, bad, bad poker and you reap what you sow.

--Z

That requires a lot of artwork. How many of the As, Ks, and Qs that hero is drawing to are in the other hands.

JT is possibly out there, but it is only fraction of the opponents hands out there that might be playing this way. Hold your nose, call and cry.

[bawcerelli]

how would you guys play this preflop with starting stacks of 1500 chips (ultimate bet)? A reraise to about 450?

NO! Get it all in!

[the_joker]

I'd still push. With a big raise and two callers, I think one will like their hand enough to call.

[bawcerelli]

everybody will fold. i want to bust 1 player.

yeah maybe they have good hands. the thing is, a raise to 125 isn't that big with starting stacks of 1500. so to adjust the original raise would of had to have been 250. so if i see a raise of 250, call, call, then yeah I'd push.

[Xhad]

First, hero puts a post-it on his monitor that says "DON'T SLOWPLAY PREFLOP IN A 20/2, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE POT SIZE IS HALF YOUR STACK"

After the flop, yeah, you're often behind, but you have pot odds for your boat and if you win this hand you pretty much don't have to do anything else until the bubble.

EDIT: Left out one word that completely changed the meaning of the sentence it was in. You are not ALWAYS beaten, at these stakes often UTG has a underpair/set/2pair while one caller flushdraw/set/2pair, and one of them has A5o/gutshot/2pair/something even worse.

[lorinda]

River quads if you are in trouble.

Lori

[mcpherzen]

[ QUOTE ]
River quads if you are in trouble.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

This is excellent advice, and it's not even close. In addition to it, I also recommend that you not allow the J /images/graemlins/club.gif or T /images/graemlins/club.gif to come off on the turn.

[ QUOTE ]
everybody will fold. i want to bust 1 player.

yeah maybe they have good hands. the thing is, a raise to 125 isn't that big with starting stacks of 1500. so to adjust the original raise would of had to have been 250. so if i see a raise of 250, call, call, then yeah I'd push.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, it makes more sense to evaluate the size of a raise by the current BB and not by the stack sizes.

Second, don't mind winning the money in the pot so much.

Third, if 1 player is gonna call a raise for over half his stack (stacks are 800 BTW) - then he will call your all in.

Push, and hope there is an AK or KK out there.

[HoldEmKillah]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
River quads if you are in trouble.

Lori

[/ QUOTE ]

This is excellent advice, and it's not even close. In addition to it, I also recommend that you not allow the J /images/graemlins/club.gif or T /images/graemlins/club.gif to come off on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO

He folded because he was convinced that J10 was out there. I told him that I would call anyway w/all the money out there just to be in command after I sucked out.

Anway, results:

UTG: KQ
MP: J10
MP1: J10

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
First, it makes more sense to evaluate the size of a raise by the current BB and not by the stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes, people's stack sizes helps determine how likely they are to call.

[ QUOTE ]
Second, don't mind winning the money in the pot so much.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the situation where stacks are 800, sure, the odds are getting big enough that you shouldn't mind people folding. Deep-stacked, when you have a big hand you want to make a raise that your opponents shouldn't call, but will, that's where the money comes from.

[ QUOTE ]
Third, if 1 player is gonna call a raise for over half his stack (stacks are 800 BTW) - then he will call your all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

The post you're quoting was talking about the situation where everyone has stacks of 1500, that's even mentioned right there in the portion you quoted. Also, at 20/2's and below I see people call half their stacks and then fold the flop all the time. Don't assume all your opponents think logically or know what they're doing.

[ QUOTE ]
Push, and hope there is an AK or KK out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

These hands will usually play and might even reraise anyway. Now let's work on getting action from worse ones.

[New York Jet]

Your getting about 4 to 1 pot odds and are either...

a) Ahead as about a 2 to 1 favorite
or
b) Behind as about a 2 to 1 dog.

Either way, I call.

[yid3655]

If you want to lose with Aces this is the best way, flat calling in a multiway pot pre flop. Get all your money in pre flop every time so you arnt making a incorrect fold on the flop

[lastchance]

CALLLLLLL. And push preflop.

[Hendricks433]

What would ever make you just call pf? I push this pf in aheart beat. Dont get fancy and let people out flop you.

[valenzuela]

push on both streets.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes, people's stack sizes helps determine how likely they are to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

For sure stack sizes should always be taken into account but PF raises are better evaluated as multiples of the BB.

[ QUOTE ]
In the situation where stacks are 800, sure, the odds are getting big enough that you shouldn't mind people folding. Deep-stacked, when you have a big hand you want to make a raise that your opponents shouldn't call, but will, that's where the money comes from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bottom line is that 3 people have shown strength before you and you have the best possible hand that loses value with each opponent that calls you. In any STT I want to isolate AND get all my chips in if I think there is a decent chance of a caller. Sure, if it's a huge MTT and you have mountains of chips relative to the BB a big (but not all-in)reraise might accomplish the same thing with less risk of everyone folding.


[ QUOTE ]
The post you're quoting was talking about the situation where everyone has stacks of 1500, that's even mentioned right there in the portion you quoted. Also, at 20/2's and below I see people call half their stacks and then fold the flop all the time. Don't assume all your opponents think logically or know what they're doing.


[/ QUOTE ]

I assumed the responder misread the OP as having 1500 instead of 800. And if the 20+2 players are that donkish, all the more reason to push.

[ QUOTE ]
These hands (AK and KK) will usually play and might even reraise anyway. Now let's work on getting action from worse ones.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't much "worse" hands for your opponents than a dominated hand and an underpair.

I think the consensus is PF push.



[/ QUOTE ]

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Bottom line is that 3 people have shown strength before you and you have the best possible hand that loses value with each opponent that calls you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aces gain EV with every call, although you prefer not to have too many callers because variance also increases and high variance is detrimental in tournaments.

[ QUOTE ]
In any STT I want to isolate AND get all my chips in if I think there is a decent chance of a caller. Sure, if it's a huge MTT and you have mountains of chips relative to the BB a big (but not all-in)reraise might accomplish the same thing with less risk of everyone folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if it's an STT, there is no point in overbetting the pot by more than a factor of 3 when you have the current nuts. Even people who will call off 1/10th of their stack with trash will think twice before calling ten times that much and putting themselves all-in.

[ QUOTE ]
And if the 20+2 players are that donkish, all the more reason to push.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you would rather they fold than give you half their stack? Even people who will call off half their stack with 56s won't call an all-in with it.

[ QUOTE ]
There aren't much "worse" hands for your opponents than a dominated hand and an underpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, but there are many other dominated hands and underpairs that will call a smaller range but not a ridiculous overbet. I've seen smaller reraises called with hands like J3s, even a complete moron generally won't call a push with that. Smarter players will never call that kind of push with KQs, but they will often call a smaller raise. EVERYONE'S calling raise increases with "sane range" vs. "overbet" (though good players are more likely to fold to a miniraise since they will suspect a monster), and ANY HAND THAT CALLS IS GOOD FOR YOU.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the consensus is PF push.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the case where it's a sane bet (like the original post), sure. If the stacks are 1500 and the pfr is only 150, that's just ridiculous.

hero needs to cut out the fancy play syndrome bullshit and re-raise with rockets preflop.

[Sciolist]

Personally, I will typically reraise to 3x the previous bet if reraising preflop. If that happens to take me to 40% of my stack, then I'll likely go allin instead. However, as you want a call and you aren't going to pass on any flop - except maybe KQJs - I am not sure if the 40% rule really applies here...

[Socrates]

Your friend sir is an absolutely horrible player obviously. With that said, yeah, he should probably fold and stop playing until he takes time to read a book or two or at least learn some of the basic aspects of playing tournament poker.

[Xhad]

Two people have already called the previous raise. The pot is already 375 plus the blinds, why would you only raise it another 250?

EDIT: fixed numbers

[AlphaWice]

Actually, if you dont mind variance, I think a stronger play is to raise an amount that potcommits everyone, then push any flop. You will get more callers with garbage, and they are calling a wildly-incorrect amount. I think this is better than pushing actually.

Ie., say you have stacks of 1500, raise to 1000. You still get all in vs big hands, but now dominated hands may call, and then fold PF when they dont hit (2/3 the time) or put the remaining 500 in when they do "hit" (but arent beating you), or in a pretty rare instance, flop trips etc., and then beat you. But I think the times that they dont outflop you overweighs the huge advantage to them bleeding for 1000.

[Xhad]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually, if you dont mind variance, I think a stronger play is to raise an amount that potcommits everyone, then push any flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you'll read my other posts in this thread I also advocate this approach when the stacks are bigger. But in the case where your stack is 800 and two people have already called a 125 raise, that means that the first person calling you gets (not counting the blinds) gets about 1.7-to-1 calling your push. That's enough to get a call in a 20/2, even all-in.

[HoldEmKillah]

[ QUOTE ]
Your friend sir is an absolutely horrible player obviously. With that said, yeah, he should probably fold and stop playing until he takes time to read a book or two or at least learn some of the basic aspects of playing tournament poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

So I guess you've never donked a play in your life, o wise one?