$109: Villian Turn Lead

[NegativeEV]

PP $109, Blinds 10/15

Seat 1: (1075)
Seat 2: (1000)
Seat 3: (970)
HERO 4: (990)
Seat 5: (1215)
SB 6: (940)
BB 7: (985)
VILLIAN 8: (855)
Seat 9: (970)
Seat 10: (1000)

Hero: A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Preflop:
Villian calls 15; 5 folds; Hero calls 15, SB completes; BB checks

Four to the flop:
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif,9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif,Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets 15, Villian raises to 70, Hero reraises to 175
SB folds, Villian calls 105

Two to turn:
K /images/graemlins/club.gif

Villian bets 200 into pot of 425.

<font color="blue"> Not interested pre-flop (most times I raise, sometimes I call).

Did not see how Villian dropped to starting stack of 855. Villian is not a $109 regular. Hero?? </font>

[durron597]

Please put the buyin in the subject heading.

I'd get out. Very unorthodox play. PF limp, flop raise then a stop and go to a flop reraise. I can't see myself playing anything like this so it's hard to put him on something. Whatever it is, he has to know that your re-raise signified a made hand and he doesn't seem to care. Without a read, I wait for a more certain spot and a later level.

[mcpherzen]

Just reading through this hand, my instincts tell me that his 200 bet wants action, and that JT and KQ are likely holdings. I probably fold here and keep the damage to a minimum.

200 is too big to try to call for value and slow him down on the river. The pot would then have 825 in it and both of you would have less than the pot left. So his 200 bet on the turn really threatens all of your chips. If you call and he pushes the river, calling him down without even having top pair is dubious at best. In the absence of any other reads here, I thin you have to fold.

--Z

[johnnybeef]

He's strong, but not Lou Ferigno strong. I push here. If he had a set or 2 pair, he will usually check the turn.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
200 is too big to try to call for value and slow him down on the river. The pot would then have 825 in it and both of you would have less than the pot left. So his 200 bet on the turn really threatens all of your chips.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought KQ or QJ from the flop action. My thought process on the turn was exactly as you state above. When I thought about the hand more I was frustrated that a 200 chip bet would put me to a decision for my stack. I was also confused as I figured a KQ would try for a turn CR (maybe the 2 flush board made him lead)...

[durron597]

Alright; usually I am raising preflop here *specifically* because the limper was UTG. If he's lrring AA here I want to know now rather than after I've invested 20% of my stack or more.

That said, once we get to the turn I think I'm folding. AK and KQ just passed us, and if he can bluff that turn with JJ he deserves my chips. I'm expecting him to have AxA/images/graemlins/diamond.gif though.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
He's strong, but not Lou Ferigno strong. I push here. If he had a set or 2 pair, he will usually check the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

The board is getting ugly, would he check with 2 pair and risk a check behind (which is what he would have gotten)?

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Alright; usually I am raising preflop here *specifically* because the limper was UTG. If he's lrring AA here I want to know now rather than after I've invested 20% of my stack or more.


[/ QUOTE ]

If I raise preflop I likely get HU with the Villian since I am CO position. If he is the type to limp/trap AA here wouldn't he call preflop when HU with a raiser? Then I don't know nuthin.

I think you know plenty if he calls and gets you heads up.

Raise PF enough to drive out the standard early position limping hands including KQ, which I suspect. If he calls, which is just as telling as him reraising, he probably has better starting than AQ.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you know plenty if he calls and gets you heads up.

Raise PF enough to drive out the standard early position limping hands including KQ, which I suspect. If he calls, which is just as telling as him reraising, he probably has better starting than AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Someone who limps KQ (or similar hand) UTG will call 60 chips more preflop I think. Someone who limps a PP there will call 60 chips more preflop I think. Someone who limps AA will call 60 chips more if it is HU with a LP preflop raiser I think.

I don't think you have much information when he calls preflop. I don't think a preflop raise is wrong, I think its fine- I just don't think the benefit of a preflop raise is gaining more information about UTG's hand often times.

[johnnybeef]

Considering that you three bet the flop, you showed considerable strength. Upon further review, I think you are behind. Fold this one. I didnt take the three bet into consideration when I made my original analysis.

[NegativeEV]

I folded (duh). Everyone seems to agree with folding the turn regardless of whether they hate the preflop limp. Anyone call or push the turn?

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
Four to the flop:
4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ,9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif ,Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB bets 15, Villian raises to 70, Hero reraises to 245

[/ QUOTE ]

[microbet]

I like folding. It does seem that raise - just calling a reraise - and then leading out is a strange line and that the King changed things for villian.

[microbet]

I think a ton of players will call the PF raise even if they were limping with low suited connectors or Ax suited.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Four to the flop:
4 ,9 ,Q

SB bets 15, Villian raises to 70, Hero reraises to 245

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot is 145 after Villian raises to 70. What does the 245 raise accomplish that a 175 raise does not?

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Four to the flop:
4 ,9 ,Q

SB bets 15, Villian raises to 70, Hero reraises to 245

[/ QUOTE ]

Pot is 145 after Villian raises to 70. What does the 245 raise accomplish that a 175 raise does not?

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't know what it would accomplish for you but for my style of play, i'm looking for it to allow me to win the pot right now instead of proceed to the turn.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what it would accomplish for you but for my style of play, i'm looking for it to allow me to win the pot right now instead of proceed to the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands would you expect to call 175 when pot is 145 but fold for 245? Do you want those hands to fold when the odds are incorrect for them to call?

I'm not being critical I'm trying to understand your thought process.

[Oluwafemi]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what it would accomplish for you but for my style of play, i'm looking for it to allow me to win the pot right now instead of proceed to the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands would you expect to call 175 when pot is 145 but fold for 245? Do you want those hands to fold when the odds are incorrect for them to call?

I'm not being critical I'm trying to understand your thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

on a board with two of the same suit and i'm holding TPTK with two other players in the hand, i want a fold.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i don't know what it would accomplish for you but for my style of play, i'm looking for it to allow me to win the pot right now instead of proceed to the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands would you expect to call 175 when pot is 145 but fold for 245? Do you want those hands to fold when the odds are incorrect for them to call?

I'm not being critical I'm trying to understand your thought process.

[/ QUOTE ]

on a board with two of the same suit and i'm holding TPTK with two other players in the hand, i want a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

What the OP is saying is that he raised over the size of the pot. This is sufficient to protect his hand. As long as you give draws the incorrect odds you "win" whether they call or fold.