Aces checkraised twice? 2/4

[ClaytonN]

3rd hand of table. Play the turn harder? Any other comments regarding the hand?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (7.75 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP3 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

[@bsolute_luck]

i gotta play that turn stronger.

Cap the turn.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
i gotta play that turn stronger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? What do you put opponent on? It seems like he could easily have 78, 99, 69, K9. If he is bluffing you, he will fold to a 3-bet. It is best to let him bluff again on the river.

[smb394]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i gotta play that turn stronger.

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Why? What do you put opponent on? It seems like he could easily have 78, 99, 69, K9. If he is bluffing you, he will fold to a 3-bet. It is best to let him bluff again on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is somewhat tough w/o reads.

But the only plausible hands on the turn we're behind are 66, 55, 99,

Obviously behind K9 (if he sucks)

Hands we're ahead of and are likely: KQ, KJ, K10, K-rag

We also beat poorly played underpairs.

I 3bet this turn w/o reads. I think we're up against top pair often enough here.

[Spicymoose]

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But the only plausible hands on the turn we're behind are 66, 55, 99

Obviously behind K9 (if he sucks)


[/ QUOTE ]

Why isn't 78s plausable? And K9s as well.

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Hands we're ahead of and are likely: KQ, KJ, K10, K-rag


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KQ probably would have raise preflo. KJ might have, making it less likely. The others are definetly possible.

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We also beat poorly played underpairs.


[/ QUOTE ]

Underpairs will fold to a 3-bet. If we just call however, we will get them to bet the river quite often.

The only hands I think we should 3-bet against are the Kx hands, yet there are far more other hands our opponent could have.

[Entity]

I 3-bet the turn and call down future bets.

[smb394]

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Why isn't 78s plausable? And K9s as well.

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I don't think many players open limp 78 or K9.

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KQ probably would have raise preflo. KJ might have, making it less likely. The others are definetly possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQ should raise PF, but often doesn't at this game. I think KJ is very likely here.

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Underpairs will fold to a 3-bet. If we just call however, we will get them to bet the river quite often.


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Yeah, I actually agree on this...not sure why i put it in there.

[Spicymoose]

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet the turn and call down future bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can someone please explain the reasoning here? The times we are behind, our decision to 3-bet usually costs us 2 extra BB. When we are ahead, our decision to 3-bet often gainst us 1 BB (against a Kx), but also sometimes loses us 1 BB (if we are against an underpair who will bluff the river). When we are behind, we usually have 0 or 2 outs (sometimes 8 if we are against K9), and when we are ahead, our opponent has 5 outs.

It seems everyone wants to 3-bet, but I still don't quite get it.

[ClaytonN]

Yes, could someone please elaborate on why 3betting the turn is more optimal here against an unknown?

results below btw...
<font color="white">he had As4s. mhig. </font>

[Blackdirt12]

I don't see why not. If he has TP he'll probaly call you down from here. He doesn't have you beat often enough here to miss the three bet. If you're worried about a set or a straight you're playing scared.

[Mister Z]

I think it's cool. I don't want to get capped with only an overpair on the turn, and I don't want to give villain a free showdown. Anyone folding this river?

[newhizzle]

i think you played it fine, a call then c/r usually means strength, so i dont think you should 3-bet the turn, and your not folding, someone c/red flop and turn and then c/ced river earlier this week when i had aces and he had top pair weak kicker, so i think the river is fine too

[@bsolute_luck]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, could someone please elaborate on why 3betting the turn is more optimal here against an unknown?

[/ QUOTE ]

because i see people do this with a K / delayed flush draw / straight draw and combos of such. i 3-bet because they'll pay your raise here but typically if simply called on the turn, they'll c/f or c/c the river UI or bet with hands we lose to anyways.

[J_V]

You can't cap the turn, you can only 3 bet. At the low limits, I would rarely 3-bet the turn with one pair unless I had reason to do so. I definitely would not 3 bet the turn here.

[bungyrocks]

3 bet the turn. hand plays differently from there

[bungyrocks]

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If you're worried about a set or a straight you're playing scared.

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bingo!

[MrEngenic]

I don't 3bet the turn. He is bluffing, has two pair or a set very often here. If he has something, he will cap and we loose 2BB. If he's bluffing he folds and we don't gain 1 BB.

[ QUOTE ]
I 3-bet the turn and call down future bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

Does this include calling a cap on the turn?

I'm not quite getting this.

[Wally Weeks]

Unless you have a read on this guy, I'd think what you did was good. Checking behind on the river is lame, and folding to c/r is also lame. If he has a set, two pair, straight, or whatever, then oh well.

3-betting the turn seems unwarranted and spewing chips unnecessarily. You want to maximize your winnings and minimize your losses.

[silkyslim]

i would 3 bet turn, he could be doing that with a pair of kings very often.

[MrEngenic]

Can we get som clarity in this issue. Those of you who 3bet this, do you really think this is +EV?

[SCfuji]

how good do you feel about your hand if the villain puts in the 4th bet on the turn?

[W. Deranged]

Here's my opinion on this hand:

1. Our hand is good enough to merit putting in 4 big bets on the last two streets; villain's checkraise if quite likely to mean either top pair, some kind of weird draw/bluff/semi-bluff, or a two pair against which we have tons of outs. Even after the turn check-raise, we have substantial equity in this hand, and I have no reason to believe that equity will decrease until villain does something to suggest it is lower than I thought (like check-raise the river).

2. Therefore, we should decide on a line that tends to get in that many bets. Calling down is probably just a little bit on the weak side here; it is certainly not horrible, but my intuition is that getting in an extra bet is going to be +EV in the long-run (this will vary greatly depending on your read of your opponent).

Our two options are:

-Three-betting the turn and betting the river (probably with the intent of folding to a turn cap OR a river check-raise).
-Calling the turn with the intent of raising the river if the river card is not very scary, and folding to a river three-bet.

I think there are arguments for both here.

The first line is better in that it tends to get a bet out of an opponent that is drawing or something like that.

The second line is better in that you are very unlikely to be three-bet on the end, even by many hands you are beating, and don't risk having to fold to a turn cap and forgo outs (particularly against two pair).

These are both significant considerations and my decision between the two would largely depend on my read of villain's aggressiveness. I like line two (raising the river) a lot against an aggro opponent who might cap the turn light and who'll usually bet into me on the river, even with a missed draw or something.

[MrEngenic]

[ QUOTE ]
Our two options are:

-Three-betting the turn and betting the river (probably with the intent of folding to a turn cap OR a river check-raise).
-Calling the turn with the intent of raising the river if the river card is not very scary, and folding to a river three-bet.

I think there are arguments for both here.



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There can be no argument for either line.


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The first line is better in that it tends to get a bet out of an opponent that is drawing or something like that.


The second line is better in that you are very unlikely to be three-bet on the end, even by many hands you are beating, and don't risk having to fold to a turn cap and forgo outs (particularly against two pair).

These are both significant considerations and my decision between the two would largely depend on my read of villain's aggressiveness. I like line two (raising the river) a lot against an aggro opponent who might cap the turn light and who'll usually bet into me on the river, even with a missed draw or something

[/ QUOTE ]


So what if he'll bet the river with a missed draw. He won't call your raise with it. And if he'll cap the turn light, why would you fold to a turn cap?

Also, remember, this is against an unknown.

[Dagger78]

For those of you saying to 3 bet the turn, what do you do if he caps?

I'd say call down, bet/call the river when he checks.

[B Dids]

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Why isn't 78s plausable? And K9s as well.

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I don't think many players open limp 78 or K9.

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KQ probably would have raise preflo. KJ might have, making it less likely. The others are definetly possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

KQ should raise PF, but often doesn't at this game. I think KJ is very likely here.

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Underpairs will fold to a 3-bet. If we just call however, we will get them to bet the river quite often.


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Yeah, I actually agree on this...not sure why i put it in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the same reason that KQo doesn't raise preflop, 78 and K9 will be open limited. You're contradicting yourself.

To the owner of the most talked about Ipod Mini ever: I think you probably win more and lose less with your line. Absent reads, I pay off the river c/r because I hate folding.

[Delzek15]

Meh... It looks fine IMO.

[crunchy1]

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I don't think many players open limp 78 or K9.

KQ should raise PF, but often doesn't at this game. I think KJ is very likely here.

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For the same reason that KQo doesn't raise preflop, 78 and K9 will be open limited. You're contradicting yourself.

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[crunchy1]

3-bet the turn. At the 2/4 game this isn't even a close decision.

When you post - stop the action after the turn check-raise next time. There wouldn't be near the debate there has been on a turn 3-bet if we wouldn't have seen the river action.