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PokerBob
09-16-2005, 01:04 PM
....play this hand for me. UTG here is 40/4/.8 over 100 hands.
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero......
aflaba
09-16-2005, 01:06 PM
lol. Good question. Fold is my guess.


EDIT: Didn't see it was 100 hands. Disregard my reply.
Wynton
09-16-2005, 01:10 PM
I'm not sure TOO much can be made of 100 hands.

I think I still have to raise, assuming that villian's possible hands include AK, AQ. But I might be abandoning the hand pretty quickly if he shows flop aggression.
brazilio
09-16-2005, 01:13 PM
Since we're essentially 50/50 or worse against villain, is there any reason to 3-bet rather than coldcall? Against a villain like this, I think I can safely fold the turn UI if he shows real flop aggression on a safe board for TT, and I think I'd like dead money in there from the BB.
RunDownHouse
09-16-2005, 01:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Since we're essentially 50/50 or worse against villain, is there any reason to 3-bet rather than coldcall?

[/ QUOTE ]
Um. Coldcall here would be awful. I 3bet.
SippinSoma
09-16-2005, 01:23 PM
4% = TT+, AQ+.
MrBig30
09-16-2005, 01:26 PM
If you 3-bet and make BB fold you already have some dead money in there right? And if he should call a 3-bet with AT or A9s or JTs you get even more. Also with UTG fairly passive postflop we can probably get free cards when behind.

After all we are in position with a very good hand in a shorthanded game and we only have 100 hands on passive villain. Also some loose bad players like that are just plain bad and will sometimes raise something unexpected. I think we have to 3-bet.
brazilio
09-16-2005, 01:28 PM
What possible equity do we have out of this? As for free cards, we're already on a hand that doesn't improve. I don't see the use out of this.
MrBig30
09-16-2005, 01:30 PM
[ QUOTE ]
4% = TT+, AQ+.

[/ QUOTE ]

4% of 100 hands = 4 hands. He could easily have PFR 12, and be on a run of bad cards. No way we can put him on that small of a range with any certainty.
PokerBob
09-16-2005, 01:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
What possible equity do we have out of this? As for free cards, we're already on a hand that doesn't improve. I don't see the use out of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

We want the BB with his K9o to fold. he wouldn't be all that wrong to call closing the action likely getting 5.5:1
SippinSoma
09-16-2005, 01:35 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4% = TT+, AQ+.

[/ QUOTE ]

4% of 100 hands = 4 hands. He could easily have PFR 12, and be on a run of bad cards. No way we can put him on that small of a range with any certainty.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain is aware of position at all, his range of UTG hands is usually half the percentage of his PFR.
MarkD
09-16-2005, 01:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4% = TT+, AQ+.

[/ QUOTE ]

4% of 100 hands = 4 hands. He could easily have PFR 12, and be on a run of bad cards. No way we can put him on that small of a range with any certainty.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain is aware of position at all, his range of UTG hands is usually half the percentage of his PFR.

[/ QUOTE ]

If villian is aware of position at all, his VPIP is not typically 40%.
brazilio
09-16-2005, 01:40 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What possible equity do we have out of this? As for free cards, we're already on a hand that doesn't improve. I don't see the use out of this.

[/ QUOTE ]

We want the BB with his K9o to fold. he wouldn't be all that wrong to call closing the action likely getting 5.5:1

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand the point of the preflop 3-bet and I'd usually agree, but with UTG's preflop raising range and him being UTG open raising, I'm behind like 40% of UTG's holdings at 80/20 already and cleaning up a K seems less advantageous than seeing a friendly flop against his AQ or AK.
purnell
09-16-2005, 01:43 PM
Against this opponent, I think three-betting preflop is necessary to get it heads up (in positoin vs loose passive), but if he shows any real aggression post-flop, you can get away pretty safely. If he caps preflop, you're probably a big dog. Folding here preflop might not cost much.
Mig
09-16-2005, 01:47 PM
I 3 bet... This type of player rarely raise AA from UTG they prefer to limp them. Seriously I find them raise AK more often than AA. But they will often limp/reraise 99+.
SippinSoma
09-16-2005, 01:55 PM
Point taken.
arkady
09-16-2005, 01:59 PM
3bet, he is passive easy to play, will pay off with A high.
Entity
09-16-2005, 02:05 PM
[ QUOTE ]
over 100 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bizzle.
sthief09
09-16-2005, 02:05 PM
I wonder hwo bad cold calling and waiting for a good flop would be
arkady
09-16-2005, 02:18 PM
depends on the blinds, but this is a somewhat easier 3-bet than the 99 hand Krishan posted.
BottlesOf
09-16-2005, 02:22 PM
I feel like Wtsd would be nice to know in weighing 3-bet vs. cc.

However, I would 3-bet this, get c/r on a K high flop , turn a set and face-prag him.
Catt
09-16-2005, 02:24 PM
I three-bet.
PokerBob
09-16-2005, 02:29 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I feel like Wtsd would be nice to know in weighing 3-bet vs. cc.

However, I would 3-bet this, get c/r on a K high flop , turn a set and face-prag him.

[/ QUOTE ]

actually, i rivered the set. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
imitation
09-16-2005, 02:33 PM
I 3-bet everyone everytime with TT.....
brick
09-16-2005, 02:44 PM
I call, raise flops with no A, K or Q's. Fold to a 3-bet.
Surfbullet
09-16-2005, 02:48 PM
First, 100 hands is not that statistically significant. I've gone on 100 hand stretches where I only raise 4 of em I'm sure.

Also, players with really low PFR do not always raise the top % of their hands. You'll often find a 50/3 player who raises A4s and 66 but not KK.

Now, if we have 1000 hands on him, and we've seen him raise AA-QQ, then I think I can let this one go.

Surf
Wynton
09-16-2005, 02:50 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Also, players with really low PFR do not always raise the top % of their hands. You'll often find a 50/3 player who raises A4s and 66 but not KK.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was very surprised when I realized this, but it really is true.
PokerBob
09-16-2005, 05:15 PM
Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

River: (6.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG has 4c 4d (two pair, fives and fours).
Hero has Tc Td (full house, tens full of fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.75 BB. </font>
Grisgra
09-16-2005, 05:20 PM
I 3-bet preflop, but I probably check behind on the turn, hoping that a passive chump with JJ or QQ or even KK will check the river, saving me a bet, thinking that a smaller pocket will probably not be so retarded as to call, and that I have to fold to a checkraise (costing me two apparently very important outs).
09-16-2005, 06:17 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
4% = TT+, AQ+.

[/ QUOTE ]

4% of 100 hands = 4 hands. He could easily have PFR 12, and be on a run of bad cards. No way we can put him on that small of a range with any certainty.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. I was playing against someone once, at a full ring table, who had a preflop raise of 1% after 80 hands. He raised preflop, and I thought, "he must have pocket aces". He did not. He then raised preflop 3 of the next 4 hands, with all the usual hands people raise with (KJsuited, etc). His true preflop raise percentage was never low, he had just been on a bad run of cards.
BottlesOf
09-16-2005, 06:34 PM
Good 3bet /images/graemlins/smile.gif
09-16-2005, 06:47 PM
Yes, 3 bet. He's an LPP. Even if you aren't sure whether he's got high cards or a pair, you gain dead money from the blinds and his passive post flop play will likely let you know where you stand.

Stats aren't that accurate (with 100 hands), but if we had to go by them, that's my assessment.
Mig
09-16-2005, 06:51 PM
I found that this type of player limp most of their big hands. Don't know what you guys think but when they raise they often do it with stuff like A8o, low pocket etc... They will often limp/reraise their big stuff...
B Dids
09-16-2005, 07:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
First, 100 hands is not that statistically significant. I've gone on 100 hand stretches where I only raise 4 of em I'm sure.


[/ QUOTE ]

At 6 max?

If his stats are from 6 max tables... well, I'm still 3-betting, but like carefully.
Mig
09-16-2005, 07:18 PM
That,s exactly what I think, I don't know why everyone think that this kind of player only raise prenium hands they usually raise trash... Anyway imo it was an easy 3 bet /images/graemlins/smile.gif
09-16-2005, 09:34 PM
Slightly suprising, yet not that unbelievable. Kinda confirms Mig's theory to a certain degree. If this guy is a true 4% PFR, the play still makes sense. Loose passives (40/4's, 60/5's even 80/2's) don't use the same logic as we do when it comes to standards of playing and/or raising. The 80/2 for example, may not include AA in his 2%. He might raise when his emotions say so or when he "feels it", and that may turn out to be only 2% of the time. If he used as much logic as we did, he probably wouldn't be an 80.