I am Bankuri, and I am weak-tight....Hi Bankuri

[Bankuri]

Ugh, Ugh, Ugh. I didn't like the way I played this hand, but I'm not sure if others would have the same reads as me.

The real villain here is MP2. He is pretty loose and has shown some aggression with marginal holdings (e.g. raised small flop with TPNK). Button is pretty passive, pretty average .5/1 looseness.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif. MP3 posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Ok, TPTK but MP2 has re-raised me preflop and on the flop. I start to think about slowing down.

Turn: (10.25 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, Hero folds, Button calls.

He's leading the turn knowing I've raised him twice already. I figure he's told me three times now he can beat Jacks and it's time to take the clue. How bad a fold was this, and if it isn't a fold, what's the plan for the river?

[istewart]

Call down. A gay limp reraise from a guy who you can both describe as "loose" and "aggressive" does not warrant a fold here.

[Bankuri]

ARRGH!!! This must be tilt...I didn't even notice the limp-re-raise.

[deception5]

I think if you're going to fold here you should fold preflop. But I wouldn't fold preflop so I'd call down from the turn and given your description probably be shown QJ/KJ/AK/TT/99/AJ/etc often enough to make it worth it. Giving a loose aggressive player credit for an overpair is generally a bad idea.

Edit: I didn't see the fact that he limp/reraised either. Add JT/J9 to the list /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Bankuri]

But, this does lead me to a question. What does a limp re-raise represent? Is it ever proper for a skilled player to do this, or is it a somewhat strong hand played by a bad player?

[POKhER]

Your thinking is ok in one sense, and he may well have you beat (AA/KK/QQ/JJ).

But if you assume this all the time, people may abuse it... and you might be wrong and fold huge pots(10BB huge /images/graemlins/wink.gif).

Call and think again on the river.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
But, this does lead me to a question. What does a limp re-raise represent? Is it ever proper for a skilled player to do this, or is it a somewhat strong hand played by a bad player?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is rarely proper to make this play. Usually it means AA/KK or complete junk. You have to give slightly more respect to an early limp reraise than a late limp reraise because it is possible that the player did not raise initially because they wanted to get some action on their premium hand. However very often it means "I'm sick and tired of you raising me, so... take that!". It can also be a good multiway hand like JTs, but this is most often done in late position after one of the blinds raised and the pot is very multway.

I had someone lrr me twice last night in heads up pots (I isolated him a lot - he was 54/2). The first time it was JTo, the second was KK.

There's another player I played against 3 sessions in a row last month who would limp-reraise every time I raised, regardless of his holdings.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]

There's another player I played against 3 sessions in a row last month who would limp-reraise every time I raised, regardless of his holdings.

[/ QUOTE ]

I call this "Small man syndrome". He wants to feel powerfull and bigger/better...

its great for the bankroll though.

[Redd]

Do you raise this flop? I don't mind call/call/call since only KQ has more than 3 outs against us. Let everyone call behind us if they want, they're getting the worst of it. And we avoid a 3-bet. Kind of a WA/WB with an audience.

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you raise this flop? I don't mind call/call/call since only KQ has more than 3 outs against us. Let everyone call behind us if they want, they're getting the worst of it. And we avoid a 3-bet. Kind of a WA/WB with an audience.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why didn't i think of this?!?!?

BUt... Do we call/call/bet /images/graemlins/wink.gif(Classic WA/WB no?)?

Or call/call/umm call?

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
BUt... Do we call/call/bet (Classic WA/WB no?)?


[/ QUOTE ]

This only works when out of position.

[POKhER]

Ah yeh.

and call/call/call kinda sucks IMO.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah yeh.

and call/call/call kinda sucks IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the guy behind us (why does it say 4 players?) actually makes calling the river better rather than worse. He'll usually overcall here so we'll make the same amount if we're ahead and don't risk a 3-bet if we're behind.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
Do you raise this flop? I don't mind call/call/call since only KQ has more than 3 outs against us. Let everyone call behind us if they want, they're getting the worst of it. And we avoid a 3-bet. Kind of a WA/WB with an audience.

[/ QUOTE ]

A good point. If we are ahead it's unlikely that we'll be outdrawn (only 2 overcards to worry about), but I think we are ahead the majority of the time here (I don't give lrr's much credit - especially loose aggressive ones. Keep in mind if he raised here initially he'd have a likely call from the poster + bb, so there isn't much reason for him to lrr a monster hand). So I think we're ahead too often to play this as wa/wb - I'd push for a little extra value. An argument could be made for a cap as well.

There's also a reasonable chance that button cold calls a flop raise with any pair, any overcard(s) and any jack which makes raising more profitable. Since he's less likely to call 2 on the turn I think just calling down is fine after that to keep the button padding the pot.

[deception5]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the guy behind us (why does it say 4 players?) actually makes calling the river better rather than worse. He'll usually overcall here so we'll make the same amount if we're ahead and don't risk a 3-bet if we're behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree.

[@bsolute_luck]

i'm with Redd: c/c/c. limp/reraisers typically are big pocket pairs. so if you're going to go to showdown just call the entire way. you win the max when he's a doof with AK and other non-premuim holding and lose the least when he as AA-QQ (haven't seen it with JJ yet).

this is such an uncoordinated flop, it really doesn't matter that we leave BB in there.

[Bankuri]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm with Redd: c/c/c. limp/reraisers typically are big pocket pairs. so if you're going to go to showdown just call the entire way. you win the max when he's a doof with AK and other non-premuim holding and lose the least when he as AA-QQ (haven't seen it with JJ yet).


[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, as it turned out the donk had TT and the calling station had JT. So, I folded the best hand in that spot. A call there and on the river and I win a nice 16BB pot. Ugh am I weak.

[Shillx]

Don't raise and don't fold. Once the flop comes down

J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif

Hit the call button 3 times and let the hand be done with.

Brad

[TomBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Hit the call button 3 times

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you see why?

Because you were LRR'd preflop, but it was from MP2 who "is pretty loose and has shown some aggression with marginal holdings." So he might have KK or AA, or he might not.

[12ozLongneck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hit the call button 3 times

[/ QUOTE ]
Do you see why?

Because you were LRR'd preflop, but it was from MP2 who "is pretty loose and has shown some aggression with marginal holdings." So he might have KK or AA, or he might not.

[/ QUOTE ]

And if he doesn't we want him to keep betting, correct?

[Shillx]

And if he doesn't we want him to keep betting, correct?

There are a few reasons why you should just call.

1) He will have a better hand then us a good % of the time.

2) If he does have AA or KK we don't want to give a ton of action since it will encourage to limp-reraise in the future. If we just call him down with good hands, he might decide that LRRing isn't such a great plan and play his best hands more straight forward.

[Bankuri]

Ok, my repentance post. Similar situation, BB isn't terribly loose, but he's played a few pots very aggressively to the showdown and they've all been with marginal holdings.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with J/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button caps</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG+2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero calls.

Ooh boy, gotta love this table.

Flop: (17.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls, Button calls.

Ok, lots of action preflop. They can't all have something can they? Is raising this coordinated flop foolhardy?

Turn: (15.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, BB calls, Hero calls.

have the odds for my gutshot/set for each call. No turning back now.

River: (21.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button folds.

Final Pot: 21.25 BB

I think I left at least one bet on the table here. The only thing that beats me here is KJ. I don't think it's possible either of these guys is playing KJ. In the heat of the moment I hit the call button.

You will never guess what BB is playing here...I mean never.

[SlantNGo]

The flop raise is fine but I fold it when it's 2 back to me, not getting odds to chase the set. The river play is interesting... BB has not played his hand like KJ but the question is whether Button will overcall, which he probably will by his play in the hand up till now. I think I'd raise if there's no fear that BB will fold to your raise, which there doesn't seem to be.

[Bankuri]

First, I have a gutshot too. I definitely have odds to call for a 6-out draw. Second, if a Q falls I have a redraw to an OESD. In order for anyone to beat my straight they'd have to have a J. I don't see the other two opponents in this hands playing hands with a J. Even if you drop this to a 3-3.5 out draw I have the odds to call the two bets back to me on the flop.

Edit: Oh, must've been tired but I have the OESD on the turn not a gutshot.

[SlantNGo]

My bad, missed the gutshot on the flop. River comment still applies, but I think you playd this hand alright. River play is read-dependant.