23s ...I know, I know: Fold PF

[thejameser]

Okay, so this is the first time i actually VPIP with 23s, but here is the scenario. Playing live 4/8(regular 8/16 and even the 5/10 games were full or closed)and it is literally 8-9 to every flop. One other semi decent regular is two seats to my left. The rest suck.

Hero is on button with 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif3 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

crappy loose calls, crappy2 loose calls, crappy3 weak/tight calls, crappy 4 loose semi-aggro calls, crappy 5 weak/tight calls, I limp, SB completes, BB checks his option(i have yet to see him raise out of the BB or SB so this factored into my decision to limp, because i sure don't want to pay 2 sb's with this hand).

8 to flop for 8sb's

Flop: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif4 /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

checked to semi-aggro crappy 4 who bets, crappy 5 calls, I raise, 1 fold, crappy 2 calls, folded to semi-aggro who calls and crappy 5 who calls.

4 to the turn for 7.5 BB

Turn: Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif

checks to me, i decide to check.

River: 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

check, semi aggro bets, folded to me, i raise, 1 fold, semi aggro calls.

Final pot: ~11 BB after rake

well, i'll probably never play that hand again outside of checking it in the big blind. i raised for a free card and to fold some people(if possible)so i took it even with the flush draw out there, it was bd so i was less concerned about it. anyway, i will be disappointed in this forum if someone doesn't have something bad to say...

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
well, i'll probably never play that hand again outside of checking it in the big blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

5 people limped to you on the button - calling with 32s is clearly fine.

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[winky51]

5 limpers? fine to cal with 23s.

Look at it this way... its an easy hand to let go and probebly both your cards are live /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well, i'll probably never play that hand again outside of checking it in the big blind.

[/ QUOTE ]

5 people limped to you on the button - calling with 32s is clearly fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would you call 25s there then? It makes just as many 2-card straights and actually has a little more high card strength.

[Redd]

I don't understand why you raised the flop; this doesn't seem like a good place to push bottom pair. You've got a bunch of loose opponents, a weak-tight calling with something, very tainted outs and you need to dodge every card in the deck twice over.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
Would you call 25s there then? It makes just as many 2-card straights and actually has a little more high card strength.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, why not? I'm not saying you are going to get rich in this situation. I don't think folding is wrong. I just think it doesn't matter (as in, it is so close to 0EV that we need not beat ourselves up about it).

I would play either in the SB without a second thought. Here it costs .5SB more, but we have position. Against a passive field like this (who will not raise into us and will give us free cards, etc.), I like the call just fine.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
you need to dodge every card in the deck twice over.

[/ QUOTE ]

You just answered your own question.

Discounting our outs substantially, we still have 1.5 outs to trips, 2 outs to two pair, 3 outs to a straight, and 1 out to a backdoor flush. Effectively 7.5 outs in a 10 bet pot. We clearly are not folding. Plus we could be ahead and would love for people with just overcards to (incorrectly) fold. Raising is better than calling, especially at a mostly passive table; it knocks people out and may get us a free card.

[peterchi]

I like every street. nh

[brettbrettr]

[ QUOTE ]
i decide to check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me this should have been the plan.

Nh.

[Redd]

[ QUOTE ]
I would play either in the SB without a second thought. Here it costs .5SB more...

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like a slippery slope situation.

[ QUOTE ]
we still have 1.5 outs to trips, 2 outs to two pair, 3 outs to a straight, and 1 out to a backdoor flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think we're being too generous with the outs to bottom two that put a 4-straight on, and outs to the nut-low end of a one-card straight with an OESD on board? Both in a large field?

[thejameser]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you raised the flop; this doesn't seem like a good place to push bottom pair. You've got a bunch of loose opponents, a weak-tight calling with something, very tainted outs and you need to dodge every card in the deck twice over.

[/ QUOTE ]

call it a semi bluff with a gutshot and a pair with bd flush potential if it makes you feel better. i could face most of the field with 2 and the fewer i have in the hand, the more my equity, no? i really wanted the free card, though.

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why you raised the flop; this doesn't seem like a good place to push bottom pair. You've got a bunch of loose opponents, a weak-tight calling with something, very tainted outs and you need to dodge every card in the deck twice over.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you're going to play this flop, then you need to raise and try to knock some people out. All of hero's outs are tainted and, for instance, knocking out a UI 7x (that will have odds to draw for a single bet) can buy 4 full outs in a big pot.

[Yads]

I like it. Good raise on the flop hopefully folding out a 7 to buy some outs to your ass end straight.

[Octopus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would play either in the SB without a second thought. Here it costs .5SB more...

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems like a slippery slope situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
You left out the part about having position in a passive field. That is important.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
we still have 1.5 outs to trips, 2 outs to two pair, 3 outs to a straight, and 1 out to a backdoor flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't think we're being too generous with the outs to bottom two that put a 4-straight on, and outs to the nut-low end of a one-card straight with an OESD on board? Both in a large field?

[/ QUOTE ]

OK. Call it 1.5 out to the straight. While we are at it, the trip outs are probably closer to 1.8 outs. Or whatever. How does this change my argument? We are not folding; raising is better than calling.

[J_V]

Preflop is a good call. Flop raise is probably bad. River raise is good.