2 hands in the SB with Axo

In both hands here I feel I made the wrong decision on the flop bet. What would you do in both of these hands and why? If I made mistakes in these I want to never repeat them.


Hand 1:

Reads per PT: UTG+2 is LPP, MP1 is a LAG, MP3 and CO are both major fish.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero ?



Hand 2:

Reads per PT: CO and BB are both major fish.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero ?

[TwoShedsJackson]

Hand 1: No point betting out into a huge field anyway, it's most unlikely you're ahead here. You're getting 7:1 on the bet and raise and there's an awful lot of cold calling going on, it's enough to call for five outs I think as if you hit another 7 you'll make a lot extra. If you hit the A you might be in trouble against ATo but will be good a lot of the time. If it's 3 bet and capped behind me I would fold for another two back.

Hand 2: I don't think I'd complete A6o with only two limpers. I check/call the flop, the turn card is going to make a big difference to your chances of winning the hand and the pot is currently too small to start going mad.

[POKhER]

Hand 1:
Preflop is a fold for me.

Fold i think as UTG hasn't acted, but were getting 14:2? Dam, are we good if we hit an ACE? Will UTG reraise? Will Mp1 Cap? We are behind i'm sure and 8.2:1 improving with 4way and 14SB pot.

Ok call this, fold if its capped 2back to you and see what turn brings.



Hand 2.
Preflop fold.
Fold.


edited: Didnt see your preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: No point betting out into a huge field anyway, it's most unlikely you're ahead here. You're getting 7:1 on the bet and raise and there's an awful lot of cold calling going on, it's enough to call for five outs I think as if you hit another 7 you'll make a lot extra. If you hit the A you might be in trouble against ATo but will be good a lot of the time. If it's 3 bet and capped behind me I would fold for another two back.

Hand 2: I don't think I'd complete A6o with only two limpers. I check/call the flop, the turn card is going to make a big difference to your chances of winning the hand and the pot is currently too small to start going mad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Normally I wouldn't complete the SB with A6o and 2 limpers, but I had seen both other players capable of playing literally any 2 cards and figured this may be one time that I can do it. The large majority of the time I would never...

[numeri]

I like hand 2 better than hand 1. I'd prefer a smaller field to complete with a hand like A6o.

Since you called, hand 1 is instamuck on the flop. You're not getting odds to draw, and you are likely drawing.

In hand 2, I think I call here - we're getting close to the odds we need, and we don't know that we're necessarily drawing. Additionally, we have the A of flushes, giving us a back-door flush draw. A raise won't knock out players you want out. Any other A (except AK/A7) is drawing dead to you, flush draws aren't folding, though you might get a gut-straght draw out. They're making a bad call anyway, so I think it's safe to peel and see the turn. I don't mind a fold either, BTW.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think I'd complete A6o with only two limpers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Can you explain why you'd prefer a larger field? I like the smaller field for A6o, but I don't have any mathematical justification for it - just that I feel I'm more likely to have the only A.

[jrz1972]

A lot varied advice in this thread.

Hand 1: Fold preflop. If you're going to play Axo from the SB, don't do it against a big field; you want just a limper or two. Given that you played it, you can call the flop. You're getting 7.5:1 (if BB folds and UTG+2 just calls the raise), and your implied odds give you some extra cover, so a call with your 5-outer is fine.

Hand 2: Converting this preflop is fine and was better than your preflop decision on hand 1. The flop is close because you can't be sure that you don't actually have the best hand right now. If I'm going to play, I'm going to raise. There are a bunch of hands I would like to fold out (middle pair anybody?) and I might as well see how serious CO is about his flop bet. That said, I think you can make a case for peeling (you're *almost* getting the odds you need) and folding (you're not quite getting the odds you need and you certainly aren't calling this down UI).

[teajay]

I'm too tight in the blinds, so I don't usually play these.

Hand 1: I hope you're not thinking about calling?? *Edit: Crap I missed all the cold calls. Getting 7:1 I suppose you should call, but I don't know if you'll be able to call a turn bet UI.

Hand 2: It's a loose call, but since you say they're fish it's likely they're going to call the flop bet too. That will help pad the pot a bit. Fold the turn UI though if you keep getting bet into.

[Taxmanrick]

Both hands are pre-flop folds for me. I might try a steal raise if it's folded to me depending on the BB.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Converting this preflop is fine and was better than your preflop decision on hand 1. The flop is close because you can't be sure that you don't actually have the best hand right now. If I'm going to play, I'm going to raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
The problem I always get stuck with here is our position. CO isn't folding, even if everyone else is. I get stuck with what to do on the turn when we miss, which we usually will. How do you play the turn if we fold out the other two and the turn is a blank like 2/images/graemlins/club.gif? Other ideas?

[jrz1972]

I agree with you that this is a delicate hand to play OOP, which is an argument in favor of folding in the first place. It's easy to make errors on later streets once you're involved.

If I c/r the flop, I'm leading the turn pretty much regardless of what hits. I really do not want to get called, though.

[jrz1972]

FWIW I think these are both interesting hands, especially the 2nd.

[Taxmanrick]

Wouldnt' that give us a re-draw to the nut flush, plus we still have draws to trips and two pair? I would check call the turn in that case.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with you that this is a delicate hand to play OOP, which is an argument in favor of folding in the first place. It's easy to make errors on later streets once you're involved.

If I c/r the flop, I'm leading the turn pretty much regardless of what hits. I really do not want to get called, though.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah... the Axo from the SB does get into some tough situations like this. My thoughts are pretty similar - if you check/raise the flop, you need to lead any turn.

Reads will make the difference in this situation for me. Against a straight-forward passive player, I think the flop can be a fold. Versus someone who may fold middle-pair here against our play, the flop c/r and turn bet could be used. Like you said, though - we don't really want to be called.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldnt' that give us a re-draw to the nut flush, plus we still have draws to trips and two pair? I would check call the turn in that case.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ha! You're totally right. I just made something up - not paying attention to the suits. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif How about the 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif?

[Taxmanrick]

Well, in that case if I check raised the flop, which I do very little(even though i should), I would probably lead out on the turn. I would definitely want everyone to fold b/c I feel that I amy very venerable here.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, in that case if I check raised the flop, which I do very little(even though i should), I would probably lead out on the turn. I would definitely want everyone to fold b/c I feel that I amy very venerable here.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, if we check/raise the flop, we pretty much have to lead a blank turn like that.

[Taxmanrick]

On hands similar to this, I would usually bet the flop. I don't know why but I would not think to c/r this. Small pot, not giving good odds to anyone by doing this. I might fold everyone.

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2: Converting this preflop is fine and was better than your preflop decision on hand 1. The flop is close because you can't be sure that you don't actually have the best hand right now. If I'm going to play, I'm going to raise. There are a bunch of hands I would like to fold out (middle pair anybody?) and I might as well see how serious CO is about his flop bet. That said, I think you can make a case for peeling (you're *almost* getting the odds you need) and folding (you're not quite getting the odds you need and you certainly aren't calling this down UI).

[/ QUOTE ]

Very interesting. I think I would also lean toward a raise here. I'm not at all convinced that we aren't ahead, given that it was the CO who bet after everyone checked. We're certainly well-positioned to face the field with 2. I'm not wild about a call here...what do we do UI on the turn if everyone calls? I think a raise will make this easier to play next street. But although it's marginal I think raising&gt;calling&gt;folding.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
On hands similar to this, I would usually bet the flop. I don't know why but I would not think to c/r this. Small pot, not giving good odds to anyone by doing this. I might fold everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]
Will you fold everyone more than 20% of the time? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
Very interesting. I think I would also lean toward a raise here. I'm not at all convinced that we aren't ahead, given that it was the CO who bet after everyone checked. We're certainly well-positioned to face the field with 2. I'm not wild about a call here...what do we do UI on the turn if everyone calls? I think a raise will make this easier to play next street. But although it's marginal I think raising&lt;calling&lt;folding.

[/ QUOTE ]
If we don't improve, we just check/fold the turn.

By the way, I think you meant raising&gt;calling&gt;folding. At least, that seemed to be what your earlier comments were implying.

[@bsolute_luck]

hand #2: does be bet draws? or bluff? i'm simply calling here. small pot. we could alredy be behind.

[Taxmanrick]

Might not, but I feel I play better when I take the aggressive approach. If I get called on the flop bet, I would probably check/fold UI on the turn. If I get raised on the flop bet, probably fold.

My thinking(probably wrong) /images/graemlins/confused.gif Small pot with bottom pair top kicker, try to win it right there on the flop. If I get raised, let it go.

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem I always get stuck with here is our position. CO isn't folding, even if everyone else is. I get stuck with what to do on the turn when we miss, which we usually will. How do you play the turn if we fold out the other two and the turn is a blank like 2? Other ideas?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. I just advocated a raise because I think it will make playing the turn easier, and you're advocating against it because it will make it harder. Cool.

If we're HU on the turn, (and didn't get 3-bet on the flop) I will bet any card. I think it's actually harder if everyone comes along. I would probably still bet--just because there are a certain number of micro players that are seeing the turn no matter what but will fold to a turn bet. But it's certainly not what I'd prefer to have happen.

If you flat call the flop, and a blank falls, then what do you do? You probably won't have odds to call hoping to improve. Check/fold? You may have just folded the best hand. Are you advocating a flop fold?

[POKhER]

[ QUOTE ]
hand #2: does be bet draws? or bluff? i'm simply calling here. small pot. we could alredy be behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your respected player and play good stakes? and i agree with many of your posts so im querying this.

Whats your reason for calling? Do you think were ahead? if were behind what do we hope for?

I fold this happily.

[VoraciousReader]

[ QUOTE ]
By the way, I think you meant raising&gt;calling&gt;folding. At least, that seemed to be what your earlier comments were implying.

[/ QUOTE ]

oops...you are right, fixed now.

[numeri]

[ QUOTE ]
If you flat call the flop, and a blank falls, then what do you do? You probably won't have odds to call hoping to improve. Check/fold? You may have just folded the best hand. Are you advocating a flop fold?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm calling because I think we're drawing, I think at least one other will call thus improving my odds, and I have good implied odds if I hit.

If I miss, it's instamuck for me on the turn.

(And I agree - it's cool to hear other thoughts. I know what I think, but I'm certainly not convinced it's the best plan.)

And now for the complete hands and how they played out:

Hand 1:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button calls, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, Hero folds, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls.

River: (10.50 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
UTG+2 has Ah Td (two pair, tens and sevens).
MP1 has 9h Jh (two pair, jacks and sevens).
CO has Th 4h (two pair, tens and sevens).
Outcome: MP1 wins 10.50 BB. </font>

Hand 2:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 4 BB

Now for my reasoning:

Last night was an extremely cold decked night for me (and it happens to have continued onto today, but whatever that happens). These were two cases where I decided to make an attempt to defend my blinds against players that I thought were weaker than me and that I could outplay after the flop. I wasn't all to excited about the first hand and facing a raise/re-raise with just bottom pair, top kicker I decided I was beat and probably wasn't getting the odds to draw.

As you can see, in both cases the turn card would have given me trips with an ace kicker and in the first hand it would have definitely been the winning hand. I felt like I missed two of the few opportunities I had all night to take down a couple of pots. I told myself the same things I usually do, and it's mostly true, that in the position I was in I was more likely to lose than win and a call was not right, especially calling 2 bets in the first hand. Raising didn't seem right either, especially in the first hand.

[@bsolute_luck]

folding could be correct, i'm not saying it isn't. but i am against raising here.

that is why i asked my first 2 questions: does he bluff or bet draws? a lot of people when they are last to act and it has been checked to them will bet with any 2 cards. if he's not that type of player, but will only bet TP, folding is the right play.

he could be on a straight draw, flush draw, weaker 6, smaller pocket pair. i figure we have the BDFD (1.5) and 5 outs for our 6s and Aces (6.5 outs), so if i keep the others in i'm getting 7:1 and so it is break even. but by raising in a small pot with a hand that is possibly behind, i'm ruining those odds and am OOP.

i'll admit, it is a bit loose, but depending on your read, it isn't bad in this situation.

[@bsolute_luck]

hand 1 is played properly. don't be result-oriented here. welcome to the danger of completing Axo in a large field /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[POKhER]

Yeh i like your reasoning, however with bottom pair(If we had reads) it's still risky.

However continuing the situations, we get to the turn and its 2 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

Hero bets? Co Calls.

We must now assume he has some of the flop and let it go on the river unless we improve surely?


River: (Unimportant, we know it helps neither of us for the sake of discussion).

Do you bet? Or do we check/fold?

However assuming previously, CO bets when checked to (Which i've seen alot and agree with specially on the flop).

so do we call for 1? or let out BPGK go?

I say we fold the river UI.

[DMBFan23]

I would be checking both these hands looking to check raise a late position bettor on the flop. I think a call in hand 1 is close, but a fold is ok, but hand 2 I would checkraise. sometimes I also bet the flop in hand 2, our backdoor flush draw helps there.