did i make a mistake here?

playing in the 6K tourny ,13 people left and only 9 het paid.
im on the BB with 89o.blinds are at 800/1600.
UTG calls ,every one folds to SB who is a very clever solid player with a lot of moves.ive seen him make steal attempts before and all sort of other plays.
i have 15K left and SB has 14K.
SB calls and i call.
flop comes 6h 8d 6c .SB checks .pot is 4800 at this stage so i bet 2K in to the pot.UTG folds and the SB reraises 1xBB.
i was certin he didnt have the 6 cuz im sure he would just call my bet if he had it.there was no flush on the bored and a long shot to a straight so he didnt have anything to be affraid of to make him wanna bet if he had the 6.
i was getting very good pot odds to call him and i was nearly sure i had the best hand but if i did call him i was sure i had to take it all the way cuz no matter what hit on the turn i knew he was gonna go all in.
i folded.
was i wrong ,or how could i have plaed this differently?

[Exitonly]

well if you're sure you ahve the best hand, and you know he's going to push you on the turn.. just push him back right now...

i don't see how you can be 'sure' you have the best hand, there are plenty tha tbeat you.. and he very well could have a 6.

but anyway, pushing is pretty good here, but i dont know really know what's correct.

[nath]

The merit of the push is that you may get a better 8 to fold. If not an 8, he may be on a straight draw, so you've denied him a chance to hit it.
If he is clever and tricky, he may "know" you wouldn't lead with a 6 and is setting you up to take the pot away on the turn. That's an argument for taking a stand on the flop since your hand won't be able to stand much pressure (or very many turn cards).

If you feel pretty solid he doesn't have the 6, I think the proper play is to shove it in. Risky, yes, and obviously it torpedoes you if he does, but if you trust your read, go with it.

well the reason why i think he didnt have the 6 is cuz i dont think he would reraise me if he did.
i mean it would make more sense that way.think about it,you call from SB cuz ur getting good odds,u flop a monster(set of 6s in this case) ,some one bets in to your hand,why not extract the mot out of them at this late stages of tourny?why not just call the bet in the hope that i will make another bet on the turn and then he can push?as i said the bored didnt have much potential ,no flush draws,no str draws.and the player was a good player ,so i cant say that he flopped a monster and got execited and hence betted the hand.even if some he did get exicted and thats why the bet,i feel like a player like that would go all in at this stage as oppose to to a min reraise.
my question is really this though:
at this stage of the tourny,was i wrong to lead giving thr situation and the flop?shold i have just checked the hand and see what happnes ?would that not be giving a free card to some one?
i think he saw my bet as an steal attemp and decided to make a move,so im wondering in situations like this that u may actually have the best hand on the flop ,but not after the turn or river,what is the best play?

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
well the reason why i think he didnt have the 6 is cuz i dont think he would reraise me if he did.
i mean it would make more sense that way.think about it,you call from SB cuz ur getting good odds,u flop a monster(set of 6s in this case) ,some one bets in to your hand,why not extract the mot out of them at this late stages of tourny?why not just call the bet in the hope that i will make another bet on the turn and then he can push?as i said the bored didnt have much potential ,no flush draws,no str draws.and the player was a good player ,so i cant say that he flopped a monster and got execited and hence betted the hand.even if some he did get exicted and thats why the bet,i feel like a player like that would go all in at this stage as oppose to to a min reraise.
my question is really this though:
at this stage of the tourny,was i wrong to lead giving thr situation and the flop?shold i have just checked the hand and see what happnes ?would that not be giving a free card to some one?
i think he saw my bet as an steal attemp and decided to make a move,so im wondering in situations like this that u may actually have the best hand on the flop ,but not after the turn or river,what is the best play?

[/ QUOTE ]

What matters is not what you think or what I think, but what HE thinks. Would he min-check-raise a 6 there? You know better than I would. You seem to think not...
...which leads right into your next question. If you think your hand is best now but you will have no way to be sure by the end, push, push, push. (OK, not in all situations at all times, but "make all efforts to take the pot down as soon as possible" is a more generally applicable version. In this case it means push.)

You've given a lot of factors that seem to indicate your confidence that he is not betting a 6 but putting a move on you, so go with your read and take down the pot now.

(p.s. the 86 on board most certainly makes for some straight draws. Not that a minraise would get them out.)

correction for my comments saying there was no str draws,as you corr3ectly pointed out there was.
and he could have been on the draw ,then after watching me making a attempt at the pot,he thinks well i raise he,i could take the pot right here,and if not at least ive got outs.
but basically what i was wondering was if i should push in situations like this ,which you said i should and i agree.
thanks for the replies.

no one thought about him having an overpair? pre flop he may not have raised 88-99-1010 or even JJ because UTG might have limped with a monster. Then on the flop he knows UTG has nothing- because he passes - and ur bet was not the bet of someone with a 6 was it?

with the chips u have left (13k?) id pass and look for a much less tricky spot mate.

[nath]

[ QUOTE ]
no one thought about him having an overpair? pre flop he may not have raised 88-99-1010 or even JJ because UTG might have limped with a monster. Then on the flop he knows UTG has nothing- because he passes - and ur bet was not the bet of someone with a 6 was it?

with the chips u have left (13k?) id pass and look for a much less tricky spot mate.

[/ QUOTE ]

Stacks are not deep enough to not raise with those pairs preflop. Besides, all information hero has given on villain indicates he is both very capable of and very willing to make a play on a flop like this regardless of his holding.

yes he could well be making a play on the flop, but just out of curiosity wot do u think he had nath?

to be honest with you i think his best hand was something like K or maybe A high.
i agree with Nath about him not having a pair higher than 8.
he would more than likely make a move if he did.
he just called cuz there was no raise and he was getting good odds and it was very chip so see the flop.
i agree with you Tommy to let the hand go and look for a better spot ,but thats only if my stack was bigger.say 20K.
i think giving the situation i played bad and made a weak lay down and should have pushed all after his raise but not straight afer the flop.
giving the situation guys,do you think its better play to push all in instead of a raise ?or is it better to make the raise and if u gt reraised push all in?

i'd raise u with the 6. most players think ppl won't do that if they had it, that's why i do it.

i think raising here if he did have the 6 is the wrong play.
if the goal is to extract as much chips as possible then:

1.if i dont have anything and im just making a move at the pot ,im not gonna call the raise to im done,so the chance of making any more out of it is gone.
2. i dont have anything but i have A or K high and if i hit them on the turn or river i maybe willing to go all the way.

3.the only argument that i can think of that would support raising with the 6 is if the other person thinks you bluffing,and decides to go all in with nothing ,but the question is would some one try to catch a bluff wtth nothing at this stage even if they think its more than likely a bluff?

[Exitonly]

Well you're telling us the right play is to push w/ your 8...


So why the hell wouldn't raising with the 6 be good... gets all of your chips in the middle (except you don't practice what you're saying).

[Roman]

[ QUOTE ]
well if you're sure you ahve the best hand, and you know he's going to push you on the turn.. just push him back right now...


[/ QUOTE ]

or just call the turn push?

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
i think raising here if he did have the 6 is the wrong play.
if the goal is to extract as much chips as possible then:

1.if i dont have anything and im just making a move at the pot ,im not gonna call the raise to im done,so the chance of making any more out of it is gone.
2. i dont have anything but i have A or K high and if i hit them on the turn or river i maybe willing to go all the way.

3.the only argument that i can think of that would support raising with the 6 is if the other person thinks you bluffing,and decides to go all in with nothing ,but the question is would some one try to catch a bluff wtth nothing at this stage even if they think its more than likely a bluff?

[/ QUOTE ]

Reraising actually disguises the fact that you have a six (remember what the OP said -- "I didn't think he had a six because he reraised me"). A flat call looks more suspicious than a small reraise. A small reraise also has the advantage of tying the original raiser to the pot more.

I put him on a str8 draw. He just min raised to scare you a bit, so if he doesn't hit the turn and he checks it, you may as well check the turn because you are scared of him having the 6.

If he is not on a str8 draw, then he has the 6 or the 8. You are loosing to the six and most likely behind or going for a tie if he has an 8.

Given that I would fold and wait again. Your stack is still in a decent shape and wait for the money.

[dmk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
well if you're sure you ahve the best hand, and you know he's going to push you on the turn.. just push him back right now...


[/ QUOTE ]

if you're WAWB, and you "know" he's going to push the turn, call the flop and call the turn push. its the best way to get your chips in the middle when you're ahead.
or just call the turn push?

[/ QUOTE ]

[captainzodiac]

you're in a tough spot for sure,you're first bet at the flop is pretty standard,but then he does a great job putting you on a tough decision,i know there's lots of times i wish i had let hands go right there,because more often then not you are beat.
he may have a hand like 99-jj.
there's always the possibility he just making a play with 2 overs and you caught him,but i wouldnt be to confident that top pair no kicker is good here!
if anything i'd be looking to reraise all in here to put him on a decision if you have trips,or just let it go,no way i call the raise and see the turn here,and let him push the turn,and force you to fold,since a face card on the turn makes it impossible for you to call.
mostly i think you made a good lay down.

do you really thing the pushing with 8 is the same as pushing with the 6,so if i say push with the 8 the same reasons should apply with pushing with 6????
with 8 the main objective is to win the pot!
with the 6 the main objective becomes how to get more chips in the pot!
with 8 you wanna win it there and then ,but with 6 you wanna get more money involved.
do you not think different strategies should be applied for the two objectives?

see my point is that i dont want for him to see another card.
even though i think i have the best hand now,it may not be the case after the turn.say for example if the turn is a K and he pushes(cuz he played so he can push on the turn no matter what)then may call becomes wrong considering that i could have pushed the flop and he would fold the turn.

[Exitonly]

[ QUOTE ]
do you really thing the pushing with 8 is the same as pushing with the 6,so if i say push with the 8 the same reasons should apply with pushing with 6????
with 8 the main objective is to win the pot!
with the 6 the main objective becomes how to get more chips in the pot!
with 8 you wanna win it there and then ,but with 6 you wanna get more money involved.
do you not think different strategies should be applied for the two objectives?

[/ QUOTE ]


Yes the objective with the 6 is to get the chips in the pot. But if your reaction to his raise it to push w/ your 8. Then it would be smart of him to raise w/ a 6. Get what i'm saying?

i get what your saying and i agree that its a clever play.
however i feel at this stages of tourny the min reraise with the 6 would get most hands to fold and hence takes the way the chance for another bet.i mean look at me for example,even though i really thought it was a move but i folded my 8.