Pressing the issue with A8o on the button

[ResidentParanoid]

Loose, passive LL holdem table that has gotten just a bit tighter in recent hands (fewer than 7 handed per flop and some pots are won uncontested. Ya I know, but I love these tables.)

I get A/forums/images/icons/heart.gif 8/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif on the button. Folded to MP1 who calls, MP2 calls, folded to me, I raise, everyone calls. 5 handed to flop.

Flop is 5/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, 3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, Q/forums/images/icons/spade.gif. checked to me, I bet, folded to MP1 who calls, MP2 calls.

Turn is Q/forums/images/icons/heart.gif (5/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, 3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, Q/forums/images/icons/spade.gif). Checked to me, bet, fold, call by MP2.

River is 6/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif (Q/forums/images/icons/heart.gif, 5/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, 3/forums/images/icons/spade.gif, Q/forums/images/icons/spade.gif). Check, bet, call.


Comments on how I played this? What probabilities would you put on (1) I win, and (2) I am way behind?

[Flashy]

I like the aggressive play, but I think you will lose about 90% of the time unless the caller is a complete moron.

With 5 players seeing the flop it had to hit someone, especially for 2 players to continue calling with 3 spades on the board. My prediction is the caller had a Queen and an unmatched spade. He didn't bet into you for fear of the flush.

After the flop bet failed to win the hand, you may have been better off to take a free card on the turn. If the fourth spade comes, then try a bluff. If he has no spade, then he may give it up.

One of the leaks in my game is once I start a bluff, I keep driving until the River. Sometimes it pays off, but typically I will get called down and lose, especially with 5 players seeing the flop. There is no shame in giving up a bluff and doing so has saved me money. Is that a leak in your game?

[AceHigh]

"Comments on how I played this?"

I would've folded before the flop, A8o doesn't play well in multiway pots. When your flop bet doesn't win it, I would try to get to the river as cheap as possible.

"What probabilities would you put on (1) I win, and (2) I am way behind?"

1) 5%

2) 90%

[lil']

I think your pre-flop raise is wasted on this group. They are not attentive or good enough to care, as evidenced by the fact that they wouldn't fold to any of your later bets.

By extension, I don't think anyone with one spade will fold on the flop or turn, if I understand the type of game you are in correctly.

None of this means you didn't win, I just think you're tossing a lot of chips in hoping you'll win the pot when nobody will fold. You may have successfully dodged all their outs. You could have taken a free card on the turn, I think.

[rigoletto]

I would've folded before the flop, A8o doesn't play well in multiway pots

A8o doesn't play well period.

I would try to get to the river as cheap as possible. ROFL /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[Bob T.]

I wouldn't play, and if I did, I wouln't raise two limpers with this hand. After the flop, I might bet once, but if I got called, I would probably give it up. If it is headsup, I might call the river, hoping to catch an unimproved King of spades bluffing.

I would say that there is some chance that your hand is good, but it is really small. Like about 1%.

[Bob T.]

"What probabilities would you put on (1) I win, and (2) I am way behind?"

1) 5%

2) 90%

Then it must be 5% that he is just behind, and not way behind?

[ResidentParanoid]

Board is 6/forums/images/icons/diamond.gif, Q/forums/images/icons/heart.gif, (5 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif, 3 /forums/images/icons/spade.gif, Q/forums/images/icons/spade.gif).

My ace high wins it. Caller has 9/forums/images/icons/club.gif, 8/forums/images/icons/spade.gif.

I agree that almost all of the time, I'm going to muck A8o. This is about the only situation where I'll play this (remember my read on the table). Even then, usually I would give it up after the flop. Here's how my thinking went:

1. Pre-flop, I've got two callers already, but table has started to look weak-tight.

2. I'm on the button, so if I'm going to play, it has to be for a raise and hope to get it 3 handed. No such luck...

3. On the flop, when I'm checked to, I'm going to take a shot: Bare spades may call and then fold on the end when they don't hit. Waiting to hear from a queen...

4. On the turn, a queen or flush is certainly going to bet or raise, but nothing. Taking a free card is an option, but I came this far to get everyone to lay down, so I follow through. There have to be a bunch of weak hands or flush draws here.

5. On the river I have to fire the last barrel. I doubt the 3,5 or 6 has paired anyone, if so would they stay? Small, medium pocket pairs are probably long gone. There is no queen out there.

[ResidentParanoid]

I like the aggressive play, but I think you will lose about 90% of the time unless the caller is a complete moron.

I think the situation was just right for me to try this. Maybe a little results oriented. I'm trying to figure out if this play should come back into my toolkit very selectively after having been banished for the reasons you mentioned. See my results post.

One of the leaks in my game is once I start a bluff, I keep driving until the River. Sometimes it pays off, but typically I will get called down and lose, especially with 5 players seeing the flop. There is no shame in giving up a bluff and doing so has saved me money. Is that a leak in your game?

I agree that this is an important lessen to learn. Much of the time, you have to give it up on the turn if these bluffs are to be profitable.

[ResidentParanoid]

I wouldn't play, and if I did, I wouln't raise two limpers with this hand.

Is limping really an option? That pretty much guarantees a 5 handed flop, and that's definitely not what I wanted (although that is what I got). Isn't this a clear raise or fold?

After the flop, I might bet once, but if I got called, I would probably give it up.

I think this situation just came together right for the flop and river bet. See my results post for justification. Usually I would agree with you.
I guess I don't respect this group of players at all.

[lil']

Uh-oh, it sounds like you're trying to justify your pre-flop raise. On a regular table this is a poor raise. You are hoping to flop an ace with a non-scary board, otherwise you have nothing. Add this to the fact that these low-limit players are going to force you to show down, and that makes the raise worse on this table.

You can surely take a shot at the pot on the flop now that you have come this far and the board looks scary, but when you get called on the flop twice, don't bet again on the turn. You just won't get all of them to fold. If either player catches a spade or one of their pairs on the river they will call you if you aren't behind already.

[ResidentParanoid]

I'm hoping to flop an ace and be checked to. In any case, I think I have a decent chance to win unimproved because of the tightening up of the table (if I can get it 3 handed). This is the questionable part of the play, pre-flop, I agree. Would you *never* raise A8o with 2 limpers in?

On the turn, I fear these 2 hands: flopped flush and Q. I hear from neither of them (even after my bet) and so I can safely rule them out. If I'm raised, I would have released. I have a good chance of being ahead then (look at the rest of the board!) and I'll charge the spades to draw out.

[SoBeDude]

Would you *never* raise A8o with 2 limpers in?

Well IF the two in question were paranoid/weak-tight, AND if I had the table image of a monster, then yea, maybe once every 5 years.

One problem to remember is one of those limpers is sure to have an ace, and a good chance they're holding a better kicker than you. So if an Ace falls you lose more, not win.

-Scott

[lil']

Would you *never* raise A8o with 2 limpers in?
I think I have raised with it before, and then the flop comes and I think, "what the hell did i raise for?" /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

[AceHigh]

"Then it must be 5% that he is just behind, and not way behind? "

Something like that. There's more than 2 choices aren't there? LOL

[Bob T.]

And apparently they didn't deserve much respect. When I said 1%, I was thinking that you might get called by an unimproved King of spades. I wasn't thinking that you would get called by an unimproved 9.

[ResidentParanoid]

And apparently they didn't deserve much respect.

Didn't I tell you I love these tables? Puts a whole new spin on "value bet"...

[Punker]

This is one of the best played hands I've seen posted here in the last 3 months. I am not kidding.

Perfectly played on every street.

[Yerma]

I think this new style of play will work out very well for you! Especially when you get called on the river by hands like 9-high! But even if the players are sane this sort of thing may work...

[ResidentParanoid]

Well IF the two in question were paranoid/weak-tight, AND if I had the table image of a monster, then yea, maybe once every 5 years.

This describes the current situation pretty well. They may not be paranoid...

One problem to remember is one of those limpers is sure to have an ace, and a good chance they're holding a better kicker than you. So if an Ace falls you lose more, not win.

These are all good reasons to give it up quickly on the flop if the board isn't favorable. I did happen to get a flop that was just right for the situation here. I'll bet I got an ace to fold after the flop on this hand.

Thanks for your comments.