What is the best site to play SH / HU? (rake, etc)

[jasonHoldEm]

Hi guys,

So I had my first shorthanded session yesterday, now before anyone gets excited, let me say that it was a .25/.50 game at UB. I'm trying to get some SH/HU expereince to improve my tournament game (I'm primarily a sit-n-go player), but I might end up becoming a short-handed addict.

My session was a losing one, but not by much (-$2), I was up for most of the time and then lost a bundle (realtively speaking, it was quarters after all), on a flopped full house vs. bigger flopped full house. Oh well, I still had a blast. I really like the action short handed, the play is much quicker and you can play in more hands. I'm still having trouble with strategy and reading somewhat, but I'm going to look up HPFAP21 and some other resources to work on that.

I was wondering what you guys consider the best site to be to play these short-handed tables? Do any sites offer a reduced rake for playing short-handed? Seems like this could be a big obstacle to overcome if the keep the rake at the standard 10 handed rate. I'm looking primarily for micro-limits right now (either .25/.50 or .50/1), to gain some expereince and then move up once my skills improve.

Also, do you think your swings are bigger or smaller playing short-handed? I've heard many people here say that a solid shorthanded player stands to make more money than a solid full table player, but I'm wondering why that is.

Thanks,
jHE

[gdaily]

Hi,

try www.24hpoker.com (http://www.24hpoker.com) for your lowest limit, its even rake-free on the 0.25-0.50 tables. I dont know if they have heads-up boards that low however, but since their traffic is quite low on the texas games (their main game is Omaha high potlimit), the games are frequently quite shorthanded.

Minimum deposit is 20$, and you will get 25$ bonus when you have played 200 raked hands (but still - you want to play at the no-rake games)

Say hi to me if you see me, I usually play Omaha Hi/Lo heasdup there.

ps. 24h:s peak hours are 20:00 CET to 06:00 CET, meaning lunch to midnite US time. They also have a few freeroll tournaments every day.

regards
Ola

[gdaily]

Hi again,

The rake is extremely critical in h2h games - and I am happy that you have the understanding of this.

I used to play at paradise heads-up tables medium limits, and with the right passive opponents its quite beatable. However, I found that 3-6 was way more profitable than 5-10, even with the same opponent! Why could that be, I wondered?

The answer was: with 3-6, one could make a raise before the flop, and there still was no rake if called. With 5-10, if called, the rake started to kick in.

Your biggest earnings from h2h games is actually to meet a passive opponent that fold too much pre-flop. So you want to do a lot of stealing - but you actually cant afford to pay the taxes if called :-)

On the other end of the limits, if you play high enough, the games are very beatable. Find a site with low rake (I nowadays only play at 24h so I actually dont know if there is better somewere else, but 24h has a cap rake of 0.75$ at the h2h tables). I think this is a good deal - however I would see that they would get rid of the jackpot drop at the h2h games, but that is just my personal thinking.

I know that there are rooms that offer time-charge for h2h games(ACR???) bau I have never played there.

So my advice is that you either play very low, at rooms with none or small rake, or high (30-60 the least) so the rake percentwise is low. The limits to avoid are the middle limits where the rake kick you hard.

regards
Ola

[Samson]

Best and cheapest way I've found to play heads up is in a 1 on 1 tournament. Lower cost than rake, and longer playing time. Of course if you hate the tournament format, read no longer. The 2 online sites that I use:

At pokerstars you can play heads up from $5 up to $500!! Fee is $20 for the big one. But they have lower buyins too and a variety of games to make most people happy. Heads up tournaments are in the Sit & Go area.

Ay dynamitepoker the heads up tournaments start at $2, and cap at $20. Variety of games too. Heads up tournaments are in the Fill & Go area.

At both sites expect to wait up to 15 minutes for an opponent if you are the first one to register. Obviously wait time is 0 if there is already someone waiting.

If you are a good heads up player this is definitely the way to play. It definitely is a better way to make money for the skilled player, as many hands are played which reduces the luck component.

[jasonHoldEm]

Hi guys,

Well, I've played a couple more short sessions of .25/.50 6 max at UB. In total I've played about 3 hours now and I'm up ~$10 (20 BB). I've hit some monster suckouts, so I don't expect that rate to continue (but wouldn't mind if it does /forums/images/icons/smile.gif).

I have a few questions and would like to get some more advice. First off, I'm limiting my sessions to around 30-45 minutes while I adjust to playing short handed. It seems like I go through three phases while playing. When I first sit down I play too tight (I'm still in full table mode), I'll end up seeing the flop and then folding to an agressive better when I have a decent hand or a solid draw. Then I get rolling and start playing well (this is when I make my money), this continues for somewhere around 20-30 minutes and then I end up pushing it to far and start playing too agressively and seeing the flop with crap hands (this is where I end up giving back some of my winnings). At this point I usually leave the table and take a break. Did anyone else have these sort of problems when first starting? How did you adjust to stay in "the zone"?

Second, what do you guys think about middle suited one gap hands? I had T8s UTG and I mucked it. The table was pretty passive preflop, and most likely I could have seen the flop for one bet, but UTG I'm not sure if this is a playable hand. Perhaps I'm being results oriented here (I would have flopped middle pair with weak kicker, plus a flush draw, picked up a gutshot straight draw on the turn, and then caught the flush on the river...and won). What do you think?

Also, what do you guys think about this hand?

I'm in MP with QQ, one caller in front, I raise get a total of three callers.

Flop is: K, Q, 9 two suited, I bet get two callers (EP folds)

Turn is a 9 completing the flush draw. I check (hoping to check raise), button bets, I raise, person between us folds, button calls.

River is a K, putting two pair on the board. I'm almost positive he has the flush, but if he has a king then I'm beat. Still, I go for the check raise again, but he checks it through and I miss a bet (but win the hand). Would you have just bet here, if so do you call the raise or re-raise (I'm sure folding to a raise would be a mistake). What about if he three bets my check-raise (assuming it was successful)?

Thanks in advance,
jHE

[lefty rosen]

Pokerroom's shorttable 2/4 has no rake on any pots below 20 and if you have a couple of tight players you can win many decent 18 dollar pots and pay nothing.

[gdaily]

In reply to: I'm in MP with QQ, one caller in front, I raise get a total of three callers. Flop is: K, Q, 9 two suited, I bet get two callers (EP folds). Turn is a 9 completing the flush draw. I check (hoping to check raise), button bets, I raise, person between us folds, button calls. River is a K, putting two pair on the board. I'm almost positive he has the flush, but if he has a king then I'm beat. Still, I go for the check raise again, but he checks it through and I miss a bet (but win the hand). Would you have just bet here, if so do you call the raise or re-raise (I'm sure folding to a raise would be a mistake). What about if he three bets my check-raise (assuming it was successful)?

---

You played the hand great until 5:th street, so I wont discuss that.

a) Check and call
b) Check and raise (and call any reraise)
c) Bet (and call any raise)

First, lets assume that you win:
a) will win you 0 or 1 unit (guesstimate 0.3 units average)
b) will win you 0 or 2 (or 3 units) (guesstimate 0.9 units)
c) will win you 1 or 2 (guesstimate 1.2 units average)

So betting here (c) is the best option

Second, lets assume you lose:
a) will lose you 1 unit (1 units average)
b) will lose you 2 or 3 units (guesstimate 2.8 units average)
c) will lose you 2 units ( 2 units average)

Finally, ay that you have 75% chanse of winning? I dont think it is that high, but you seems to think so, so lets use that number:
a) +0.225-0.25 = -0.025 units
b) +0,675-0.7 = -0.025 units
c) +0.9-0.5 = +0.4 units.

So betting right out will give you a positive result, the other negative. You might not agree with my guesstimates nor the 75% win ratio. If so, please feel free to crunch your own numbers and write them in this thread, for us all to know.

best regards
Ola

[jasonHoldEm]

gdaily,

Thanks for your response, I think betting out would have definately been the right play...he didn't show his hand (and the hand history doesn't show it either), but I'm pretty sure he had the flush, especially because he bet when the third flush card landed, and then called my raise (probably wouldnt have done so with just a K?). Anyways, lesson learned, in the future when I put someone on a hand I'll do my best to stick with it.

I'm still struggling to keep myself from going into "ultra-agressive" mode. I just finished an hour and a half session (+$9, 18BB). The table was really nice (i.e. folding to my semi-bluff raises, etc)...so I forced myself to calm down, attempt to stay "in the zone" and play good poker. Needless to say it worked, and I was pretty proud of myself for not going over the edge (this being my longest and most profitable short-handed session to date).

If these results continue for the next week or so I'm probably going to move up to .50/$1. I know it's not huge money to you folks, but I've run my UB account up to a whopping $40 now after starting with around $5.50 (after I cashed out $80 to move to stars), so I can't complain...it's fun and I'm learning that's really all that matters to me. /forums/images/icons/smile.gif

Thanks for your advice,

jHE

[tewall]

Regarding QQ hand. If you have TOP (Theory of Poker), there's a chapter on betting on the end which covers this situation well. Basically, assuming you're ahead, you're looking at whether the odds are greater that your opponent will call a bet or bluff. In this particular case, with the board this scary and given the betting up until this point, I think it's more likely your opponent would make a crying call than that he would bluff at the pot.

Regarding how to play shorthanded, it's important to notice how your opponents are playing and how they think you are playing. You didn't mention either of these factors (which isn't surprising, since there's a lot to think about).

That is, your posts seemed only to be focusing on your own play (should I play aggressive, passive, etc.) without regard to the opponent. The main thing you want to do is focus on taking advantage of your opponent's errors, preferably without they're figuring out what you're up too. So whether you should play aggressively or passively will be a function of your opponent's play, to a very large degree.

Another thing to focus on is not playing in a predictable fashion. One way of doing this is to randomize your play. For example, if you have 2 red cards, play passively, if 2 black card aggresively, etc. With time, you'll be able to do this by feel, but until then you can randomize by time (where the second hand is) or by cards, and keep your opponents guessing, which will increase the chance they'll make mistakes. Use this randomizing technique when you're not sure of the proper play.

Finally in regards to your question as to why shorthanded can be more profitable, the answer is simply that you're playing more hands. If you play better than your opponents, the more hands you play the greater the opportunity for this difference in skill to tell.

BTW, when you're making money the chances are that it's due more to getting good cards then playing well, and vice versa (losing money doesn't mean you're playing bad). A lot of times a missed or caught card can make a huge difference, whereas playing well or badly may only make a difference of a bet or two. So don't focus on results, but on your play (as you seem to be doing).

[jasonHoldEm]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Regarding how to play shorthanded, it's important to notice how your opponents are playing and how they think you are playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I see the merit in this, in a perfect world would you rather be playing against passive or agressive opponents? It seems like you'll lose less against the passive players, but win more against agressive ones. /forums/images/icons/confused.gif

As I said before I'm just getting into playing SH I've hears a lot of people talking about the variance of playing short handed. I'm not exactly sure what this means exactly, but does it mean your "swings" are going to be bigger? So sometimes you'll have bigger wins/losses than you would at a full table? If someone were to "specialize" in shorthanded play (and only play shorthanded tables) what effect would this variance have in the necessary bankroll size to play a given limit (or is the 300 BB standard still acceptable)?

Thanks for the tip on the QQ hand, I'll look it up in TOP (I need to re-read it to absorb some more material...it's such a "thick" book).

</font><blockquote><font class="small">In reply to:</font><hr />
Another thing to focus on is not playing in a predictable fashion.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is another thing I didn't think about, thanks for suggesting it. There probably aren't very many "observant" players at the level I'm playing right now, but this will be a great habit to get into for higher limits. Since you're playing so many more hands with the same people, its going to be easier to observe how the play certain sitations and react accordingly. That goes both ways so keeping them guessing and making myself "unreadable" makes perfect sense.

Thanks again for all your help,
jHE

[24hPOKER]

OK, I hear you.

From tomorrow morning we will take away the BBJ from the h2h tables. We will also cap the rake at $0.50 instead of $0.75.

Just don't come complaining when you are beat by AAAA to your AAAKK and you not only loose a big pot but also miss out on the several grand in jackpot. /forums/images/icons/wink.gif

See you around,

[tewall]

Many people, myself included, would probably prefer to play against passive people where, although your wins are smaller, they are more predictable . There are some that prefer to play against aggressive players. The problems with aggressive players are:

1) They are harder to read
2) They are more likely to be playing closer to correctly in a short-handed situation
3) The swings are higher

Often you want to try to trap the aggressive player and control the betting with the passive player. There are two types of passive players. (Simplifying here, of course) One type will play passively and fold if they don't get anything. The other type will not fold. Against the folding type you want to bluff and semi-bluff. Against the other type you don't. Instead you take free cards and bet for value.

The more shorthanded the game is, the more you can be sure you are being observed, even at low limits. They may not have the skill to take advantage of what they observe, but you can be sure they're trying. By randomizing your play, you make it more difficult for them to do that. When you're in a 50/50 situation, simply play it one way one time and another way another time. In addition to making yourself more difficult to read, you'll gain experience in playing hands in different ways, and may find that playing a hand in a different way than you were accustomed to actually works better. Also it will keep your bets believeable.

I'll give an example. Say you're second to act on the flop and you have a draw and the player to act bets and there's 3 in the pot including you. Should you raise? If you raise, you might get rid of the third fellow, and set yourself up to win the pot on the turn. If that doesn't work, you can fall back on your draw. This can be particularly effective with a straight draw. However, if you play this way too often, your opponents will adjust. This is especially so if you always slowplay your big hands. So this means that even though you might ordinarily wait until the turn to spring the trap when you have a big hand, you might want to raise on the flop to set up your bluffs and semi-bluffs. This is an example of how varying your play can help you. You want your opponents to make mistakes so they stay in when they should get out, and vice versa, and varying your play is a good way to do this.

TOP is really good to study for short-handed play. You have a lot more chance to apply such principles as inducing bluffs, bluffing, free cards and so forth. The play at the end section is excellent for either short-handed or full ring play.

Regarding your question about swings, you'd expect larger swings short-handed because you're playing a lot more hands.

[jasonHoldEm]

tewall,

Thanks for the good explanations...looking forward to reading TOP (again) and playing some more s/h games...too bad finals are two days away and I need to start studying /forums/images/icons/frown.gif

jHE

[gdaily]

This is my main reason for mainly playing at "minor" cardrooms - they listen to their customers, and each and every customer is important for them! Keep up the good work Stefan!

Now, may I just ask for some better cards ? /forums/images/icons/grin.gif

Best regards
Ola