109 - KK do I raise? If so, where?

[WebGuySteve]

I do realize most of you will say repop it PF. I do reraise PF a lot, however, here I feel flat calling is a good play.

But my questions:

Do you reraise PF?
Is flat calling horrible
Do you raise the flop or just call?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx (http://www.zerodivide.cx/converter)

SB (t2080)
BB (t2265)
UTG (t1120)
MP1 (t640)
Hero (t910)
CO (t285)
Button (t2700)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t95</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t95, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t80, BB calls t65.

Flop: (t380) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">BB bets t150</font>, UTG folds, Hero ???

[bluefeet]

PF definitely. Get another t150 chips or so of his in the pot, shut out the rest, maintain position.

This flop? I'm pushing. A "Q" is more likely to let you c/b IMO. A "A7s" and/or the flush draw is much more likely IMO. With UTG ducking out of the way, I push this immediately - very nice little pot early on.

[WebGuySteve]

I don't think maintaining position is of great concern to me here. Only 2 left who can have position on me, and one is a short stack. I also think that raising 150 more is poor because it gives away the strength of my hand and gives me almost 0 chance to double through him. With position on the raiser, I like to let him bet into me. I was fairly certain that BB didn't have a Q, for the same reason you stated. Let's say he has A7, he's only got 5 outs to beat me, so I think that him outdrawing me on the turn vs the odds that he will fire if he misses are too good to raise. If he has the nut flush draw, he's got a lot more outs to draw out on me, and I'd rather see the turn and get the chips in on a safe turn.

[bluefeet]

I understand your point PF - I do this occasionally myself. But in the early blinds, you are simply making it to "cheap" for the blinds to come along with all kinds of drawing hands.

I'd personally be a little more weary of the flush draw than the "7" (considering blind holdings that will jump on board PF). The problem with not raising here, is that you WILL be giving the river card after the turn action.

After "calling" the flop, you have 650 chips or so left - taking an almost 700 chip pot to the turn. Doing this hoping he'll lead yet again will not leave you room to push him off from behind. He WILL be calling your push with his flush draw.

I'd push it on the flop, picking up a nice 500+ chip pot. If he wants to double me up chasing his 9-outer, so be it.

[adanthar]

I'm ignoring PF, flat calling is not horrible at all depending on how many overcallers you're gonna get/want.

Flop: BB usually has a medium pair or a 7 (there are some flush draws in there and a very rare queen). You are mildly concerned with SB so you can safely just call this now. If you get an overcall or CR, dump the hand (you found out cheap). Otherwise, you'll probably get another t200 out of BB on either the turn or river, that'll be that, and you can take down half of his stack or so very nicely.

Raising is good if BB will push anything he bets, but not too many people do that.

[mjm]

Personally I pop it back pre-flop but don't mind the flat call. I think i'd push the flop, pick up a nice pot there. I think bb checks a Q 90% of the time here. Would hate to call and see a club or A on the turn.

[WebGuySteve]

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: BB usually has a medium pair or a 7 (there are some flush draws in there and a very rare queen). You are mildly concerned with SB so you can safely just call this now. If you get an overcall or CR, dump the hand (you found out cheap). Otherwise, you'll probably get another t200 out of BB on either the turn or river, that'll be that, and you can take down half of his stack or so very nicely.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was precisely my thinking, and also why I just called the flop.

[bigt439]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Flop: BB usually has a medium pair or a 7 (there are some flush draws in there and a very rare queen). You are mildly concerned with SB so you can safely just call this now. If you get an overcall or CR, dump the hand (you found out cheap). Otherwise, you'll probably get another t200 out of BB on either the turn or river, that'll be that, and you can take down half of his stack or so very nicely.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was precisely my thinking, and also why I just called the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree with this flop logic. You are either way ahead or way behind of the bettor in most cases (I think a flush draw is kind of rare here relative to the other pair hands that bet). If he does have an FD, whatever, you gave him a cheapish card and you can let him make the mistake of calling on the river if he wants. I also like being able to see an overcall or check raise cheaply.

Preflop, I really think you have to raise. He's UTG so he probably has a decent hand when he opens. I don't think against the average 109 player you're giving away too much information, because I dont think alot of them are good hand readers. Regardless, you have to raise because of the amazing odds you are giving especially to the blinds.

[Moonsugar]

If I have a Q I lead here almost every time. I will then go for the c/r on the turn. This line has worked really really well for me. If any of the players are ultra aggressive I will check/raise the flop though.

That being said, no one likely has a queen so calling or raising is good.

I really don't like the flop call with KK in relatively EP. AA ok but not KK with many to act behind.

[curtains]

To be honest Ive never just flat called in a sit and go in this situation, they call my raises too often. Honestly if people fold that much if you raise them, you should start reraising with 73o a bit more often.