($27) Top pair, meh

[durron597]

First hand UTG and MP got in a war on a 3488A that ended with MP folding and no showdown. only read.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter (http://www.pokerhand.org)

Button (t1925)
Hero (t1440)
BB (t1348)
UTG (t2090)
UTG+1 (t1360)
MP1 (t1540)
MP2 (t1300)
MP3 (t1745)
CO (t752)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t150) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, BB folds, UTG calls t100, MP2 folds, CO calls t100.

Turn: (t450) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t100</font>, UTG calls t100, CO calls t100.

River: (t750) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks

[Iamafish]

Looks fine to me.

Edit: I'd probably do the same on the river, check-call. They coulda been drawing, fine. They could also be holding a bigger PP, thinking you may have the set in the SB. Since its early, I'll check call, and see what happens.

[junkmail3]

I don't like the turn too much. You're giving a flush draw 5.5:1 to call, and after that the next caller has 6.5:1 ...

If they have a 7 though, you should expect to get raised at somepoint, but probably on the flop I would think. Though I could see them waiting for the turn.

But since you didn't get raised on the turn, or the flop, I think the only hand you're behind is AT at this point, so I would value bet this river, and fold to a raise.

[bluefeet]

I value/block bet the river as well. A check here opens the door for an Ace holder, suspecting you were betting the flush draw, or something silly like that. A modest lead by you on the river should keep the Ace or some other mid-PP holder in check.

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
They could also be holding a bigger PP, thinking you may have the set in the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think JJ-AA would likely have raised preflop?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I value/block bet the river as well. A check here opens the door for an Ace holder, suspecting you were betting the flush draw, or something silly like that. A modest lead by you on the river should keep the Ace or some other mid-PP holder in check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why keep them in check? If by the way the hand played out, I am pretty certain I am ahead here on the river, why not check and let them take a stab at it? Of course I am calling, but, dont I stand to gain more by check calling then block betting and being folded to or called?

7 is raising the turn here, I am not too worried about that, If a 3 is there god bless them...JJ-AA= ZERO CHANCE!

flush draw and or 89 and or t worse kicker...this is a 27, not a 215.

[Iamafish]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
They could also be holding a bigger PP, thinking you may have the set in the SB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think JJ-AA would likely have raised preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but Iam only assuming they didn't raise PF. People are weird.

But I forgot to mention AT also. And, yes that turn bet is pretty low.

I don't wanna spend too much here, having that pot is fine.

[junkmail3]

How big of a bet do you call on the river if you check?

This is one question you don't have to answer if you lead the river, because you can fold to most raises. I think you'll get called by an A often enough to make up for the times you would get bet into with an amount too high to call ... but like you said, this is a $27, not a $215.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
How big of a bet do you call on the river if you check?

This is one question you don't have to answer if you lead the river, because you can fold to most raises. I think you'll get called by an A often enough to make up for the times you would get bet into with an amount too high to call ... but like you said, this is a $27, not a $215.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats my point, I really think 2pr is good here enough of the time to justify calling any bet...I am only betting this river if I am afraid they will check behind me, and I am only checking this river bc I want to call any bet possible. I am only folding if I check and both villains go all-in.

I really don't see what I am behind here...even TT wil raise PF enough of the time to make it unlikely (combined with the fact that I have one). AT is almost the only hand I really fear. I feel like everything else is raising the flop or turn.

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I value/block bet the river as well. A check here opens the door for an Ace holder, suspecting you were betting the flush draw, or something silly like that. A modest lead by you on the river should keep the Ace or some other mid-PP holder in check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why keep them in check? If by the way the hand played out, I am pretty certain I am ahead here on the river, why not check and let them take a stab at it? Of course I am calling, but, dont I stand to gain more by check calling then block betting and being folded to or called?

7 is raising the turn here, I am not too worried about that, If a 3 is there god bless them...JJ-AA= ZERO CHANCE!

flush draw and or 89 and or t worse kicker...this is a 27, not a 215.

[/ QUOTE ]


I concede the "block". I'm with you. Extremely doubtful I'm getting away from this hand (I'm officially throwing out the "3", the "7" or "&gt;JJ holder". So let's consider the "value" side of the arguement. What most likely hands stick around this far? A donk "Ace-something", a mid-PP, a flush draw. IMO the "Ace-something" and the "mid-PP" WILL simply call value bet. Similarly, I don't think either one would get to frisky without the nutz if we checked. I think the likelihood of getting a t200 call or two, greater than having one move on this board.

There is also the chance of another "T" holder. In this respect, a lead could very well serve as a block if he wasn't convinced there wasn't a boat out there.

Hero is almost playing this hand as having trip'd "7"'s, then showing a tad of disinterest on the turn having filled a boat. His check on this river is unlikely to induce a bluff IMO. Where again, a small value bet will most certainly be called by the hands described.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Why keep them in check? If by the way the hand played out, I am pretty certain I am ahead here on the river, why not check and let them take a stab at it? Of course I am calling, but, dont I stand to gain more by check calling then block betting and being folded to or called?

7 is raising the turn here, I am not too worried about that, If a 3 is there god bless them...JJ-AA= ZERO CHANCE!

flush draw and or 89 and or t worse kicker...this is a 27, not a 215.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly my thought process in the hand.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]

Hero is almost playing this hand as having trip'd "7"'s, then showing a tad of disinterest on the turn having filled a boat. His check on this river is unlikely to induce a bluff IMO. Where again, a small value bet will most certainly be called by the hands described.

[/ QUOTE ]

This, on the other hand, is exactly why I posted the hand.

Edit: and also, to a lesser extent, sometimes donks wait until the river to raise cuz they're donks, so I checked?

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly my thought process in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your thinking...

[ QUOTE ]

I stand to gain more by check calling then block betting and being folded to

[/ QUOTE ]

I simply disagree with this statement. Again, considering the hands you beat that are still around, I think quite the opposite is true -- they WILL call a value bet.

Anyone?

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is exactly my thought process in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand your thinking...

[ QUOTE ]

I stand to gain more by check calling then block betting and being folded to

[/ QUOTE ]

I simply disagree with this statement. Again, considering the hands you beat that are still around, I think quite the opposite is true -- they WILL call a value bet.

Anyone?

[/ QUOTE ]

havent been around since yesterday, so Ill pick this up again.

I disagree with you Bluefeet. You are correct perhaps in that your value bets will be called MORE OFTEN than a check will produce a bluff from one of the two villains. But, the times they do bluff, you stand to make much MORE in CHIPS which over time will be more +EV.

What are they calling a value bet here with? the draws, never... maybe an A sometimes, maybe a mid PP...the times they try and take it away are much more profitable.

[durron597]

I think whether they bluff here and whether they call another value bet is really an issue of what their cards were. So results are even more meaningless here because some parts of their range will bluff and some will just take the free showdown.

So it ended up checking around.

Seat 2: durron597 (small blind) showed [T/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif] and won (750) with two pair, Tens and Sevens
Seat 4: UTG mucked [9/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif]
Seat 9: MP2 mucked [J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
I think whether they bluff here and whether they call another value bet is really an issue of what their cards were. So results are even more meaningless here because some parts of their range will bluff and some will just take the free showdown.

So it ended up checking around.

Seat 2: durron597 (small blind) showed [T/images/graemlins/heart.gif K/images/graemlins/club.gif] and won (750) with two pair, Tens and Sevens
Seat 4: UTG mucked [9/images/graemlins/spade.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif]
Seat 9: MP2 mucked [J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, as you said, the results are meaningless, but it appears a value bet was in order in THIS case. But I still think the pot is good enough for someone with air to take a stab at. IOW their thinking SHOULD be the same as ours, "no 7s out there, no 3s" "I can take this away"---and when they do, theyll have to make the bet big enough to turn down...

oh well

[Roman]

ewwww... bet more on the turn check/call the river. How can you justify that turn bet? I HATE it, what info do you gain if you are raised there? You are also letting them draw cheaply.

[durron597]

[ QUOTE ]
ewwww... bet more on the turn check/call the river. How can you justify that turn bet? I HATE it, what info do you gain if you are raised there? You are also letting them draw cheaply.

[/ QUOTE ]

How many people do you think bluff raises that turn bet? Honestly?

As far as letting them draw cheaply, I don't want to get overly invested in this pot, I don't want to lose a lot against made trips. I want to keep this pot small.

[Roman]

If you want to keep the pot small, check flop and bet safe turn. I bluff raise you here all day, and im sure a lot of 27 players raise with both 7s, Ts, and draws. Your bet screams im weak...