Question for Geniuses.

OK, now that I've gotten all the geniuses to click on this... I want to know everyones thoughts on the following question.

This may not be the right forum but I'm hoping to get better responses here than in OOT.

A friend and I are debating whether or not somebody born with 0 of the 5 standard senses, and fully paralyzed, would ever know that they were alive?

Example: A baby is born fully paralyzed and without the senses of sight, touch, taste, smell, and hear.

Would their person ever understand that it was alive???

[DougShrapnel]

This baby would certainly die, without ever knowing it was alive.

Why would it die?

Say it doesn't die. Say it is paralyzed during birth somehow and it is fed intravaneously.

This person lives to be 20 years old. Does this person know they are alive?

Could he/she feel his/her heart beating? Could this person dream? What would this person's brain dream up? This person never really had any stimulated experiences...what would it dream of? Blackness? Would he or she know they were dreaming?

Discuss.

[Dominic]

whatdoes it matter if the person isparalyzed or not? Without the other senses, it still won't know what it is or have any feeling whatsoever - not even pain.

Only sensation I think he could feel would be if it fell off a high place.

[brassnuts]

I don't think it would have much of an understanding of its existence. By definition, this being would be without sentience. It's brain would operate on a very basic and most likey subconscious level. Not only is brain developement dependent upon input, but the only functions I can think of the brain performing would involountary reactions to things like hunger and thirst.

[RJT]

I like the question.

I don’t know too much about science and it might have a relatively basic scientific answer. We’ll see, here. I am curious to see if the scientific answers are theoretical or certain.

If there is not a scientifically certain answer, then of course, the answer is going to be something like “we would never know for sure, but most probably.…”

I do know he wouldn't play a mean pin-ball, though.

[KidPokerX]

Good question.

Although the baby would not live a normal life by any means, I do think it would survive (but not for long). His brain would be nonfunctional except for the most primative needs (sleep, thirst, hunger). There would be very little to no brain activity. My guess is this baby's body would shut down after a few years.
Intereting idea though, since this has never been recorded in history all we have are theories.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]

Example: A baby is born fully paralyzed and without the senses of sight, touch, taste, smell, and hear.

[/ QUOTE ]
did we really need this example? i mean, we ARE geniuses! plus, your example simply repeated your question. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Yeh, I think that the baby wouldn't last too long.
And I don't think it would know that it's alive.
Even normal babies aren't conscious of being a living being until around one( somewhere around there at least), let's say. And that's with the normal stimuli. I think that the totally paralyzed and unaware person, even is they survived to twenty, would be forever stuck in the pre-conscious mind of a newborn.

Shooby

[Godfather80]

[ QUOTE ]
OK, now that I've gotten all the geniuses to click on this... I want to know everyones thoughts on the following question.

This may not be the right forum but I'm hoping to get better responses here than in OOT.

A friend and I are debating whether or not somebody born with 0 of the 5 standard senses, and fully paralyzed, would ever know that they were alive?

Example: A baby is born fully paralyzed and without the senses of sight, touch, taste, smell, and hear.

Would their person ever understand that it was alive???

[/ QUOTE ]

Most fully sentient people in this world do not understand that they are alive. Why should a senseless infant be any different?

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]

I do know he wouldn't play a mean pin-ball, though.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dun Dun Da DA DuDA!...

nice...

-Gryph

[Darryl_P]

Does the sense of touch include stuff that goes on inside your body? For example, if I feel stuff happening in my lungs when I breathe, is that the sense of touch working? Or does it only refer to stuff that our skin comes in contact with?

If it's the latter then I'd say yes, otherwise probably not, although I doubt such a person could exist.

[purnell]

My guess is that the infantile mind, never having been stimulated, would not be aware of the concept of aliveness, or anything else.

Another thing that occurred to me is that a fetus with no developing senses might also have a severely underdeveloped brain. Such a fetus, it seems to me, would likely be spontaneously aborted.

He certainly wouldn't be able to feel falling off a high place. Falling off a high place is like driving in a car. There are two things in a car that would tell you you are moving.

1) you would see things moving in your window. so relative to you, your brain would "sense" movement.
2) you would feel the pressure on your back against the chair created as your mass increases slightly.

If you were to fall off a building you would
1) see the world approaching and sense movement
2) feel the friction of the air on your skin

A child born without sight or touch would certainly never fully understand or even sense the idea of movement.

[ QUOTE ]
Does the sense of touch include stuff that goes on inside your body? For example, if I feel stuff happening in my lungs when I breathe, is that the sense of touch working?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure. But I was wondering as well. Could this person "feel" their heart beating? Would their brain acknowledge this beat? It's like when you cover your ears and clamp your teeth together...you can "hear" it internally. Can deaf people hear this? I wonder..

I also do not know if the brain would be able to "dream". Because, I'm assuming, dreams are only composed of past stimuli. Because this baby never had much/any stimuli, I doubt his/her brain would be able to concoct a dream.

As far as the brain feeling hungry, and tired, etc... I don't know. I guess it could feel hunger and exhaustion?

Good discussion so far.

[A_C_Slater]

There is a story from World War One about a American soldier that lost his sight, hearing, arms, and legs from a land mine.

This is about as close as one can get to this state you describe. There is a movie about it, but I forget what it's called. In the movie the soldier eventually tells the doctor's too kill him in morse code, by banging his head against the steel rail of the bed saying "kill me, kill me, kill me" over and over again in the code.


Metallica wrote a song about this movie, it is called "One" from the '...And Justice For All' album.

[ QUOTE ]
the soldier eventually tells the doctor's too kill him in morse code, by banging his head against the steel rail of the bed saying "kill me, kill me, kill me" over and over again in the code.


[/ QUOTE ]

Holy shhhhh.it. That's hardcore. I wanna watch that movie. Please let me know if you remember the title.

[A_C_Slater]

I found it.

The movie is called 'Johnny Got His Gun' (1971)

Yahoo user's rated it an A-





A moving drama which realistically depicts the horrors and evil of war. A youthful combatant in the first World War finds himself in a hospital bed with both of his arms and legs amputated. This was also the inspiration for the song "One" by heavy metal legends Metallica.

Genres: Drama

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a story from World War One about a American soldier that lost his sight, hearing, arms, and legs from a land mine.

This is about as close as one can get to this state you describe. There is a movie about it, but I forget what it's called. In the movie the soldier eventually tells the doctor's too kill him in morse code, by banging his head against the steel rail of the bed saying "kill me, kill me, kill me" over and over again in the code.


Metallica wrote a song about this movie, it is called "One" from the '...And Justice For All' album.

[/ QUOTE ]
why didnt he just tell the docs to kill him? why bang his head in code?

[RJT]

Don80,

This is hilarious. I have been rolling on the floor laughing since this morning.

RJT

[RJT]

Right, the baby is basically a fetus. Instead of in the womb, outside the womb and hooked up to tubes.

Not gonna comment from here. Just wanted to say it seems a good analogy, Purnell.

[hmkpoker]

You'd have to ask the baby.

I see this question as something that needs empirical evidence, but unfortunately, like most questions about consciousness, evidence is hard to come by.

[A_C_Slater]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is a story from World War One about a American soldier that lost his sight, hearing, arms, and legs from a land mine.

This is about as close as one can get to this state you describe. There is a movie about it, but I forget what it's called. In the movie the soldier eventually tells the doctor's too kill him in morse code, by banging his head against the steel rail of the bed saying "kill me, kill me, kill me" over and over again in the code.


Metallica wrote a song about this movie, it is called "One" from the '...And Justice For All' album.

[/ QUOTE ]
why didnt he just tell the docs to kill him? why bang his head in code?

[/ QUOTE ]


Well, I forgot to mention it, though it should seem obvious. He loses his speech as well.

I do not believe a person in such a state would know that he or she were alive.

The ability to think, regardless of having or not having senses, is not impaired. However, the method and mode of thought is. Thought is based from experience - which is gathered from the senses. Without senses, a person has no experience, and therefore has no basis for thought. What would a person who has never experienced anything think about? His or her thought would be completely and radically different from our own.

Some might argue that, despite handicaps, this person would still be self-aware. How? Self is a concept. This person would never have had any experience regarding self or individual. This person would not even know what a person was. This person would not even know what a concept was. Everything is foreign. Even the basic necessities - food, shelter, water, clothing, etc. would be foreign. The concept of a body to put clothes on is alien. This person would not even be aware of physical form. The body would still desire food, but the mind would not know what food was. This person would not even understand the concept of life or death.

For all purposes, this person can hardly be considered alive much less self-aware.

[ QUOTE ]
I do not believe a person in such a state would know that he or she were alive.

The ability to think, regardless of having or not having senses, is not impaired. However, the method and mode of thought is. Thought is based from experience - which is gathered from the senses. Without senses, a person has no experience, and therefore has no basis for thought. What would a person who has never experienced anything think about? His or her thought would be completely and radically different from our own.

Some might argue that, despite handicaps, this person would still be self-aware. How? Self is a concept. This person would never have had any experience regarding self or individual. This person would not even know what a person was. This person would not even know what a concept was. Everything is foreign. Even the basic necessities - food, shelter, water, clothing, etc. would be foreign. The concept of a body to put clothes on is alien. This person would not even be aware of physical form. The body would still desire food, but the mind would not know what food was. This person would not even understand the concept of life or death.

For all purposes, this person can hardly be considered alive much less self-aware.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange to see that someone showing some recognition to the complex concepts coming into play in a subject like this, can just as easily cruise along these concepts like its 'basics/self-evident' and form a question and conclusion in just under 20 sentences. I hope you see how ridiculous that is?

FYI, for me, im not burning my hands on this one(let the flaming begin /images/graemlins/smile.gif ). I dont see any reason for throwing wild statements out here since they do not fullfill any other possible need for me than wanting to be recognised as an 'intellectual'(and i hate that need, i have it but i hate it). Forming any kind of a decent hypothesis on this casus that would actually be somewhat fruitful would take weeks at least, and im too lazy for that plus i have other things to do...(like i said flame away)

[jakethebake]

My cousin had a baby like this actually. It was born w/o a brain stem or something. It was pretty much the most horrible thing ever. The doctors said it would only live like a month or so. It lived a horrible 6 months.

[Dan Rutter]

Understanding what a paralyzed person can feel and do would probably help. Can a paralyzed person feel hunger, can he or she cry? Would being feed from tubes ease feelings of hunger? If these situations would be true, maybe the person in your question would overtime be able to realize that a pain from hunger occurs. Something then occurs that causes this pain to stop. Overtime, if this person has capabilities to cry, maybe they would be able to communicate their hunger.

Would this person be able to maintain a sense of balance? Or have a sense of balance? Say you pick this person up and spin them in circles. Would this person realize something irregular is occuring?

[ QUOTE ]
The body would still desire food, but the mind would not know what food was.


[/ QUOTE ]

Right.. I mean the stomach would still get hungry and send impulses to the brain. Your brain would know it was hungry but would have absolutely no idea how to negate this feeling... you don't know what FOOD is because you've never experienced it. Your brain would know it was hungry or tired but would just wait for it to go away.

[ QUOTE ]
Overtime, if this person has capabilities to cry, maybe they would be able to communicate their hunger.


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting.. like a baby that somehow knows to cry when hungry... I didn't think of this.

I'm pretty sure this person would be able to produce tears at least. Perhaps not ball and wail, but produce tears from hunger. But would it even know it was producing tears? I doubt it.

So maybe it can communicate with the outside world, yet is not aware of doing so.

[ QUOTE ]
I hope you see how ridiculous that is?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, not really.

All I, or anyone else, can do is speculate. Obviously no one has ever been born without all five senses and told us what it was like. However, we can make an educated hypothesis on it. If you consider the fact that this person would never even have knowledge of his or her own body, much less the concept of form, then it is hard to believe he or she would be self-aware. How would he or she ever gain the knowledge of the difference between life and death? They would not know what 'being alive' meant.

[ QUOTE ]

The ability to think, regardless of having or not having senses, is not impaired. However, the method and mode of thought is. Thought is based from experience - which is gathered from the senses. Without senses, a person has no experience, and therefore has no basis for thought. What would a person who has never experienced anything think about? His or her thought would be completely and radically different from our own.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this as well. You experience things through human stimulus (senses). These experiences perpetuate thought. I do not think the brain could think without being "triggered" by some experience.

Suffice it to say that when we dream we are visualizing a montage of items/events that we've experienced in the past? I think so..

For instance, I study architecture and I've dreamt (sp?) about buildings that I know I have no seen, however, I think my dream was composed of glass, concrete, steel, brick, etc. that I've seen in the past and morphed into something that I'd never seen.

Also, we can all dream about or visualize a "fantasyland" but we can only do so by adding past images of palm trees, water, sand, coconuts, hot girls, etc. that we've seen in the past.

I do not think that humans can visualize something that can not be made of a set of items that they had previously seen. It's not possible.

If you've never seen a tractor, but you've seen tires, steel, glass, and the color yellow you can visualize a tractor. If you've never seen a Coke can but you've seen aluminum, and the colors red and white, you can visualize a Coke can, etc.

Exactly.

[pokerjoker]

"I think therefore I am"

A valid quote. However, we are not doubting the existence of the baby - we know it exists and is technically alive. We are doubting, instead, that the baby would know this. I think not.