215: hand I possibly played very badly

[citanul]

meh?

Total number of players : 9
Seat 4: ( $1095 )
Seat 5: k ( $932 )
Seat 8: ( $1480 )
Seat 7: ( $750 )
Seat 1: ( $347 )
Seat 6: ( $775 )
Seat 3: ( $2347 )
Seat 9: hero( $930 )
Seat 2: g ( $1344 )
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to hero [ Ah Jh ]
1 fold
g raises [100].
k calls [100].
hero calls [50].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Js, 2s, 7s ]
hero checks.
g checks.
k checks.
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8c ]
hero checks.
g bets [100].
k calls [100].
hero calls [100].
** Dealing River ** [ Ad ]
hero checks.
g bets [225].
k calls [225].
hero calls [225].

[kyro]

Sometimes I think playing like a little girl is the way to go. If you bet and get raised, it could be anything from an overpair or overs with a spade. Personally, I probably would have pushed the turn, but I highly doubt you're getting called by much that you beat, but there is a very good chance you're ahead and it offers you protection and the pot.

What I want to know though, is what happens if g bets around pottish on the flop. Are we running for the hills? Because I would.

[Newt_Buggs]

I would probably lead the turn. Sometimes you're drawing dead against a made flush that has been slow playing, but most of the time you are ahead but your hand is vulnerable. Any hand except for a flush that beats you would have bet this flop. Having checked the turn I like your call.

[pokerlaw]

i dont mind the check on the flop, i usually bet but i am on lower levels.

assuming you check and are facing these bets, i raise the turn though. pot has about t550 and you have t830 left...makes this somewhat tricky. hmmm...i'd push,give the guy w/ one club worse pot odds.

Edit: didn't notice hero checked first on turn. I would bet there - t350 pot and having t830, i would prob bet t550 - like to leave some chips behind...

[pooh74]

I dont get why you think this was played SO badly...

Would you normally bet/raise the flop here against 2?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont get why you think this was played SO badly...

Would you normally bet/raise the flop here against 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, i don't personally think i played it that poorly, otherwise i wouldn't have played it that way. i'm not close to one of my mindless clicking moods right now.

but it's a line that i think many would disagree with, and wanted to see if there would be any discsussion that might in the future lead me to consider other lines in hands like this.

citanul

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I dont get why you think this was played SO badly...

Would you normally bet/raise the flop here against 2?

[/ QUOTE ]

oh, i don't personally think i played it that poorly, otherwise i wouldn't have played it that way. i'm not close to one of my mindless clicking moods right now.

but it's a line that i think many would disagree with, and wanted to see if there would be any discsussion that might in the future lead me to consider other lines in hands like this.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think there is a way to figure this out, but I cant right now. (nor never proboably) but it comes down to a basic risk reward analysis that is probably quite complex actually. Some variables I'll throw out there would be:

-betting raising flop when you're beat-what do you do on turn?
-check/call (your line) when you're ahead and stay ahead gains more because two stay in pot, induces river bluff/value bet when As hits his TP-but this line also allows the obvious draws.


Its a tough hand to play honestly and I always have trouble with the monotone board and TP. Flat calls really are hard to discern whether they are made or drawing...its really tough.

What I like about your line is that when you're ahead on the flop, you win more by check calling when the spade doesnt come than you do by betting/raising yourself. You also will tend to lose less at one time, but over time lose a little "more often".

I am not going to proofread my response cas im at work...but I hope 2% of it makes sense.

[johnnybeef]

i dont know who it is, but one of your opponents is slowplaying a flopped flush. i definately fold the river, and depending on how disciplined i am on that perticular day, probably fold the turn.

[Rduke55]

I bet your hand was good here.

[microbet]

I think the Ace on the river makes it an easy call. There are a lot of hands they could be playing that you beat and one of them could have easily been drawing with the As and then calling or betting with top pair.

[johnnybeef]

[ QUOTE ]
I think the Ace on the river makes it an easy call. There are a lot of hands they could be playing that you beat and one of them could have easily been drawing with the As and then calling or betting with top pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

Making an overcall in this situation demands that you have very close to the nuts (if you had the nuts you would obviously value bet.) While two pair is a pretty hand, it is not strong relative to the range of hands you are up against given the betting pattern and the board.

[adanthar]

If you call the turn, calling the river isn't a question. However, I don't think I get there because the overcall is a good sign to dump it now.

You're good on the turn a fair percentage of the time but not enough to counter the reverse implied odds from bad rivers/flushes betting again vs. the minimal amount of chips you pick up with the best hand on 47/52 cards.

[WebGuySteve]

I actually don't think anyone flopped the flush here, though, since you're posting it, someone probably did.

Absent the fact that you posted the hand, I think I would play it like the best hand. I like the check on the flop, I might lead the turn, but check calling is fine. The 2 pair that the river brings, I think I would raise. I'm calling a push, so I may as well get full value out of mr. AsX. He may have even flopped a pair and a flush draw, like As7h or something, though I don't think he would slow play it.

I just feel that being afraid of monsters is poor sng play. We can't be afraid of k here, if he had the flush, he's certainly raising the river. I think he's the one with the As. We also can't be afraid of the bettor just cuz he's betting. He's the most likely to have flopped the flush, but, I doubt it. I think he may have a medium PP, or possibly the As.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I actually don't think anyone flopped the flush here, though, since you're posting it, someone probably did.

[/ QUOTE ]

feel free to make this assumption about anyone else's hands but mine. i'm not interested in posting, nor do i believe i post, hands that are "simple" can i fold this, should i have folded this is there some way not to get stacked here, type hands. frankly i'm pretty insulted.

citanul

[WebGuySteve]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I actually don't think anyone flopped the flush here, though, since you're posting it, someone probably did.

[/ QUOTE ]

feel free to make this assumption about anyone else's hands but mine. i'm not interested in posting, nor do i believe i post, hands that are "simple" can i fold this, should i have folded this is there some way not to get stacked here, type hands. frankly i'm pretty insulted.

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

I appologize, I didn't mean it like that. I just figured most people post hands that have significant results, and I honestly haven't seen you post a ton of hands. Again, I apologize, I didn't intend to insult you.

[microbet]

[ QUOTE ]
Making an overcall in this situation demands that you have very close to the nuts (if you had the nuts you would obviously value bet.) While two pair is a pretty hand, it is not strong relative to the range of hands you are up against given the betting pattern and the board.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you sound so definite. If you found a hundred hands played out exactly like this, I think you would find people's hole cards all over the place. Sure you are beat a lot of the time, but you don't have to win often on the river to call.

[lorinda]

As you know, I don't know much about the $215s, so I don't know how often someone would bluff the bare ace here. In the 55s "k" would show the As here a high percentage of the time and "g" would show Ks Jx.

In the 55s I would call the river for sure.

Lori

[citanul]

lorinda,

i expect that if you decided to play the 215s you'd be a winner there.

how about the line to get to the river? it appears most like leading the turn. what do you think?

i think that amongst other hands that might be there, with Asx, KsJ, there's also some 2 pair ace hands and such. (amongst the hands i beat.)

citanul

[citanul]

Results in white below. Kinda wanted to leave them nonexistant for a while more.

<font color="white"> g shows [ 6d, 6s ] a pair of sixes.
k shows [ Td, Ac ] a pair of aces.
citanul shows [ Ah, Jh ] two pairs, aces and jacks. </font>

If you read them, what do you think of the play by either opponent on the river?

citanul

[johnnybeef]

i hear what you are saying, and it would be very very difficult for me to fold this hand on the river getting 5:1 if it were hu. but, multiway pots are an entirely different monster. anyone with a decent limit background will tell you that overcalls in a multiway pot demand extreme strength and in all honesty i don't think that top two with this board is strong enough.

[bawcerelli]

reading what they had, i think they both played this pretty wonkishly from preflop on, expecially K. don't care for the min raise by g either. fukin donkeys lol.

edit- is K trying to take this pot from G on the river by calling the turn? he has no business calling the turn. looks to me like he flat called, hoping you'd fold, then he could put in a big bet on the river. but you didn't fold, and he paired his ace so he called the river.

[pooh74]

[ QUOTE ]
Results in white below. Kinda wanted to leave them nonexistant for a while more.

<font color="white"> g shows [ 6d, 6s ] a pair of sixes.
k shows [ Td, Ac ] a pair of aces.
citanul shows [ Ah, Jh ] two pairs, aces and jacks. </font>

If you read them, what do you think of the play by either opponent on the river?

citanul

[/ QUOTE ]

G's bet is terrible, he knows or should think on the turn that one of you has a flush, flush draw with an A, or a pair better than a 6. He should then think that the A coming is the worst card possible for him, especially the Non spade A. 225 was made to look like a made flush betting for value, but he should also know that opponents will be hard pressed to fold top pair on a "broken" draw board.

The AT hand made such a great call on the turn eh? He should at least be planning to take the hand away from you guys by that call...instead he switches gears on the river and thinks, "maybe I'm good here and should just call."

Again, you made more money playing it this way then by playing the more traditional way. Any lead-raise by you is netting you much less. Not saying it makes it right per se, just worked out nicely this time.

[microbet]

I think their river play was moderately bad. k's turn play was terrible. If I give him a lot of benefit of doubt he could have been thinking of making a big move on the river and then changed his mind when the ace hit and thought it might be worth a call.

I want to thank them for making my post look good where I said their hole cards could be all over the place.