Playing against the rush

[pufferfish]

Online, LL ($1/$2), loose/passive.

Question - how do you handle a table where a couple of players always seem to be on a rush? Do you leave, stay out of hands with them, or just continue the battle?

Example hand, don't mean to whine - we'll, yes I do, sniff! ;-)

I limp from MP with As 8s. Six players see the flop without a raise.

FLOP: [ Ks 3c 9s ]

Blinds check, 1UTG bets, 2UTG calls, I call, everyone else folds.

TURN: [ Ks 3c 9s ] [ Ad ]

1UTG bets, 2UTG folds and I call.

RIVER: [ Ks 3c 9s Ad ] [ 3h ]

1UTG bets, I call.

1UTG shows: 3s 9d - for the full house.

I know I played this really weakly, but... I have more hands, but I'll shut-up now. Any advice?

TIA,
pf

[Jeffage]

Yes, you need to play more aggressively and splash some chips in this spot. I would definitely raise the flop with my nut flush draw and ace overcard. Seeing that you didnt, when you hit the ace it's a must raise...you are likely ahead and if not you have 9 outs to a flush and two pair or trips would also likely be good. I would have lost much more than you would.

Jeff

[pufferfish]

Thanks Jeffage,

From your response I take it you continue to fight the good fight. I’ll try.

pf

[Your Mom]

I don't care what kind of rush they are on- if they are playing 93 then I want to play in that game.

[pufferfish]

Well, OK.

No one (2 posters so far) seems to be willing to acknowledge the “rush thing”.

Every once in a while I’ll sit at a table where 1 or 2 players are on a rush.
If I’m wrong about the “rush” thing I’d appreciate being enlightened. Does anyone have any other comments?

TIA,
pf

[pufferfish]

Normally I would not mind my chips flowing to this player, if he gave some back, even to others.

That was not the case. He and another player took about 75 BB off the table.

I really am talking about playing against a rush, not just sour grapes here.

OK. I got mad and left to play $3/$6 at another site. I have only played it once before and got my clocked cleaned.

OK, I got my own little rushes, but I also folded and folded, and played against the players. Don’t mean to brag (yes I do, damn) but I tripled up by playing tight/aggro.

I am gonna get reamed or ignored, so I probably won’t post for a while. LOL, yes I will.

TC,
pf

[lil']

Rush smush, I say. The luck of your opponents caused you to misplay your hand. Now you are battling two things: your opponents good luck and your own mistakes. If it's having that kind of effect on you, then you were right to change tables. Get out if it's messing you up.

It's good to whine sometimes. We all have to get it out of our system now and then.

[Your Mom]

I don't have a problem with you switching tables. You have to be comfortable to play your best poker. Obviously, it worked out for you. I think each person has to make the decisions that are best for him. In your case, these two seemed to really have gotten in your head so you made the right decision. If I was in this same situation, I would be determined to wait out the rush and kick their ass, but maybe that is just my stubborn "refuse to lose" attitude, which occasionally gets me in trouble. GL.

[kiddo]

I agree with other posters. If you are staying out of a hand cause someone is on a rush, then its time to change table. Some players start to play loose/aggressive when they win some pots, but that is a changed playing-style, not a rush.

About raising the flop with your draw. If the game is loose/passive its normally very good to raise for a free-card, they wont 3-bet you with toppair, and maybe not even with 2 pair.

If someone 3-bet your flopraise at this loose/passive game they normally got at least 2-pair.

If you only call on flop and the same player bets out on turn I would only call with toppair+flushdraw. In my experience, a player betting turn into more than one player in a 1/2 loose/passiv game got a good hand, at least 2 pair. They would (almost) never bet their K if an A falls on turn. At another table you would be ahead, but at this you are behind. But again, if they will check to you even if they got a small set on river, if you raise turn, then its a good raise.

[Homer]

Question - how do you handle a table where a couple of players always seem to be on a rush? Do you leave, stay out of hands with them, or just continue the battle?

Actually I try to get into more hands against them, especially if they believe in rushes.

-- Homer

[pufferfish]

Thank you for the replies.

OK, then – the consensus seems to be pretty unanimous. At least I got it out of my system. I’ve experienced this kind of “rush mirage” a few times and always wanted to post about it.

You’re right; I let these two players psych me out and played poorly as a result.

I looked at the last 100 hundred hands I played at this table and the two “devil players” ;-) won 47 of those hands between them. Fifteen were won without a showdown. Maybe we were all getting a little freaked.

Oh well, at least I didn’t go on full tilt.

Thanks again,
pf

[rigoletto]

I believe you'd be able to handle this thing better psychologically if you could rid yourself of superstitious beliefs.

As long as you can't handle it, it's fine to move! But believing in these things is likely to affect your play in negative ways and being able to deal with them is an important aspect of poker. In your case you left a table with some very beatable opponents!

[Girchuck]

Maybe you could benefit from a shorter more selective memory?
Forget they won, remember only with what they play.

[Zag]

Rushes are a real thing -- don't let these "everything-evens-out" guys tell you otherwise. However, they are always only in the past. Consider this run of hand results, and consider how close my commentary [in brackets] is to your typical thoughts in this sort of case. It is a $3/$6 table.

Lucky player wins a $60 pot, showing down 99 which flopped a set
[Nice hand]

Lucky folds in middle position.

Lucky limps after two early limpers, Button limps, too. Flop is 289 with two spades, and is checked around. Turn is Qs, BB bets out, Lucky raises, everyone folds. Lucky wins $30 pot.

Lucky folds in early position.

Lucky raises under the gun, late position and BB call. He bets out on an unintersting flop and others fold. $18 pot
[Probably had aces or kings. Lucky for him they held up. He's won a couple of hands lately. I wonder if he's on a rush.]

Lucky gets a free play in BB in a family pot. Flop is J88. He check calls, then check-raises. When the smoke clears, his J8off beats AJoff and 89s for a $100+ pot.
[Watch out! He is definitely on a rush.]

Lucky calls from SB, then folds to flop bet.

Lucky folds button.

Lucky raises in cut-off after 1 limper. Only Limper calls. Lucky bets flop and wins $16 pot.
[Rush is alive and kicking.]

Lucky folds.

EP fish raises, and Lucky reraises [playing his rush!]. BB and EP call. Board ends up K 5 6 Q 9, where Lucky bets every round, dropping BB on the turn. Lucky shows KJ and beats TT.
[What a rush this guy's having!]

Lucky raises preflop. Gets check-raised on the flop, calls, and folds to a turn bet.
[Heh heh. He pushed his rush a little too hard. Maybe it's over.]

Lucky limps from early position, calls flop and turn bets, then bets out on the river when flush card hits. Wins $70 pot with 9Ts to make a flush.
[Uh oh. Rush is still going strong.]

Lucky raises under the gun and everyone folds to the rush.
[He's definitely still on it.]

Lucky folds both his blinds to EP raises.

Lucky calls on button after 2 limpers, BB raises, all call. Flop is A95, two hearts, EP raises, Lucky calls, BB check-raises, all call. Turn is a black Q, BB bets out, EP and Lucky call. River is a black 3, BB bets, Lucky folds.
[He missed his heart draw. Maybe rush is finally over.]

Lucky folds.

Lucky folds.

Lucky open-raises from Middle position, Cut-off re-raises and BB caps. When it's all over, BB has QQ which flopped a set and became a boat on the turn. Final pot was over $100.
[OK, looks like Lucky's rush is over.]

Now for the test: From the time that you decided that Lucky was on a rush till the time that you decided it was over, how much did he win on this huge rush?

Answer: $15-20. The QQ that won the last hand won a lot more than this.

The problem with thinking about a rush is that you unconsciously add in the amount that he won in the pot that convinced you he was on a rush, and you don't subtract the amount that convinced you the rush was over. But if you are really going to play differently because you percieve a rush, then you can't afford this mistake. The rush you percieve is always in the past, and the next hand is as likely to be the one that ends it.

[pufferfish]

Thank you for the additional replies.

Rush or not it just sucks when they leave the table before they can give much back!

Yea, I guess this was pretty much a whine post on my part.

I decided to make the jump (prematurely?) to slightly higher limits ($2/$4 and $3/$6) in order to find tables where the money means something to many of the players. Of course, if you’re patient you can find that at the matchstick games; guess I’m not that patient.

It’s also fun, in a warped way, to play at a table where the money means a lot to me since I have much of my "pretend" BR on the line!

Thanks again,
pf

[Jeffage]

Puffer,

You got to keep the faith buddy, you are still learning (we ALL are) and you will get better as time goes on. The more you play the more you will learn to not even worry about your current results really...if someone sucks out on you 5 times and leaves, oh well. Someone will replace him and the game (the real game not your current session) never stops. It is completely cyclical and if you play well you will ultimately get what you deserve out of it. Remember...press your good hands and big draws hard...sometimes if your in doubt, a raise is better than a call and gives you more options. Stay cool and see ya at the big games /forums/images/icons/laugh.gif .

Jeff